Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
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Alban
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Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Alban »

Hi there !

First of all, here is my actual electronic setup :

Two Focusrite pro 40 in dual unit mode + 1 octopre MK2 -master clock- (non dynamic) => 24Analog IN/OUT

Arturia Minibrute
DB Erebus
ATOMOSYNTH Mochika
SHRUTHIXT custom

MFB TANZBAR
LXR Sonic potions

Custom overdrive pedal
LINE 6 Echo Park delay pedal

Racks:
ZOOM RFX1000
LEXICON MPX1
ALESIS MIDIVERB III

KENTON THRU 5 BOX
ERM MIDICLOCK+ clock

I know I will get more and more hardware stuff in the future...
I do a lot of improvisation with this stuff (mostly techno / electro /ambient /drone) and I often record EVERYTHING at the same time.
But using DAW is a pain and not intuitive at all. I'm sure I'll be "better" when everything will be connected to a mixing desk. I had the opportunity to use BIG FOH ones like 48 tracks midas or huge soundcraft during school, it was amazing.

So I'm looking for a decent analog mixer to train with transitions, EQ and stuff...real mixing. So DAW will be a simple digitizer...

Since I started to get more and more hardware, I realised that DAW mixing is not really comfortable for me. I work 10 times faster with hardware gear.

I'm only using software compressors (most of time I don't compress anything, maybe drum bus compression and pads, + mastering tools ...), and use audio spectrum/dynamic plugins like BX meter or Voxengo Span for visual feedback.

So my goal is to use DAW only to record jams if they sound good and maybe finalize a few tracks with it.

What I would like about basic routing possibilities :
at least 24IN (32 is better) - 6 auxes (or more) - at least 4 bus (more is better) - direct out with post fader option

What do you think about old desks VS new ones ?
For example i found this :
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/console-anal ... -8-8-8-2/p etites-annonces/i.899943.html
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/console-anal ... 59813.html
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/console-anal ... 96123.html
It's french writing but you get the idea.

Any brands/models in particular to recommend or avoid ?

From what I read about old ones, CREST / Soundtracks / Soundcraft (ghost?) / Midas /Amek /DDA / TAC... would be a great choice.

What about actual public desks like A-H ZED series, soundcraft GB/GL, Yamaha MGP...Any experience with it?

Maximum budget is around 1000-2000 €, second hand mostly obviously, you can't find much for this price.

(Forgive my rude english, I learn it day after day) :oops: :)

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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by berto999 »

I've got an Allen & Heath Zed 10, no complaints. Solidly built, nice EQs, USB interface works great. The only thing I wish sometimes is that it had sliders rather than knobs for channel volume, but that's me just being fussy.

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SixOfOne
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by SixOfOne »

Another Zed 10 user here. Does the job nicely but the only downside is the lack of multitrack recording. I would like to record 4-6 tracks at a time but it's not that important at the moment. I don't see how people would need 24 or 32 ins for studio work, but each to their own I guess.

I've been toying with the idea of picking up a Soundcraft Signature 12MTK. Has only been released recently and seems to be a decent mixer. They also have a 22 channel version which might be more suited to what your looking for:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_sig ... ch_prv_3_2

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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by msl »

Second hand Midas would be my choice. Old Soundcraft Deltas are great but will probably need servicing, recapping etc to get the most out of it.


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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by TvSkY »

my last 4 mixers were crest xr-20 , allen and heath zed 428 , soundcraft delta dlx 32 and a midas venice f32

allen and heath zed 428 - nice , modern , compact , sounds good , nice eq , usb useless . this is a good option if you want a reasonably priced new large board

ohwert has some nice live vids of techno in his studio on his 436 . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Vc1hempWo

soundcraft delta - ok . big , old , needs maintainence , poor eq even with the upgraded dlx eq . was not as impressed as the cult following suggests . apparently awesome with some work and mods though .

midas venice - great sound , superb eq , FW good enough to be your only interface . a bit big . loud fan . just all round good sound . run you mixes through it straight from daw for some great mojo. if I had the space I would pick this again.

crest - current mixer due to downsizing the studio , small rack , really good sound and build quality , eq is ok . built like a tank . probably better as a submixer in DAW based or bigger setup . it can be a bit cramped to work on at times. thats pretty much my workflow at the moment so its perfect for me.

also you have put some big time heavy hitting old consoles there that will need serious effort like amek , dda , large midas , even the ghost will have issues . we all love the idea of having this once 100k console in our house in all its awesomeness but you need to seriously consider the realities of it . It will be massive , it will need installation , it will need onsite maintenance , it will need substantial space and power . its a big commitment for a home studio and really for just some synths making techno it probably cant be justified either logistically or sonic-ly. even a medium format desk like an amek big or touring level soundcraft is a big complex old bit of kit requiring up keep

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Alban
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Alban »

a Soundcraft Signature 12MTK. Has only been released recently and seems to be a decent mixer. They also have a 22 channel version
Will check it.
and a midas venice f32
A friend is using a f24. I will have the opportunity to use this mixer for two/three weeks from tomorrow,
loud fan
Yeah what the F about this...you can change it, but no more warranty. I suppose you have to get used to it...

Indeed F32 looks like a perfect all-in-one solution. I have space so it's ok about size.

The only one I know nothing about in your list is the soundcraft Delta, but from what you say it's a bad idea.

Crest XR20 (APB Dynasonics now ?? http://www.apbdynasonics.com/products/P ... House.html) looks really nice for the size.
also you have put some big time heavy hitting old consoles there that will need serious effort like amek , dda , large midas , even the ghost will have issues . we all love the idea of having this once 100k console in our house in all its awesomeness but you need to seriously consider the realities of it . It will be massive , it will need installation , it will need onsite maintenance , it will need substantial space and power . its a big commitment for a home studio and really for just some synths making techno it probably cant be justified either logistically or sonic-ly. even a medium format desk like an amek big or touring level soundcraft is a big complex old bit of kit requiring up keep
What about their modular format...? Today if for example track 27 of a MidasF32 die, you have to bring back all the mixer, same with AH and most recent "big brand" desks.
it probably cant be justified either logistically or sonic-ly
. Well, different point of view from many muff forum users.

I looked these old mixers in order to get some coloration too, something impossible with 1000-3000€ mixers from Today. Maybe I'm completely wrong !
"You should better buy actual mixer and combine them with patchbay, good preamp, good eq, good comp...in order to get some nice coloration" :?: What about this statement?

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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Hades »

the Midas Venice F32 only has pre-fader direct out,
just mentioning that before I forget, and because I know some people are really annoyed by that.

I used to use a Soundcraft Spirit FX16,
it was ok, but sound quality wise nothing compared to the Midas Venice F32 I have been using for approx. 4 years now.

If I would have to buy another one today, I'd probably buy the same one, but the 24 channel version,
as I just don't use enough channels at the same time to really need the 32 version,
especially since all of my HW and SW is connected to my 3 patchbays,
so it's easy enough to change channels of my mixer...

what can I say : great sound, really really great EQ, nice gain, and extremely flexible unit,
though it might need some thinking upfront to properly decide how you wanna hook up all things.
For example : one of the good tips someone gave me, was to hook up my returns into the stereo channels, instead of just at the returns of the mixer.
This is a typical trick used by dub musicians, but it gives you a lot more options on the returns you get from your FX units : EQ, extra gain,...

I don't use the FW part of my Midas, and I never use direct outs,
so if you have a question about that : sorry, can't give you any advice about that. :)
But other than that, shoot if you have any questions about the Midas. ;)

I use my monitor out 1&2 to my Eventide, aux 1&2 to my Eventide, and my aux 3&4 to my Fireworx (or other FX stuff like my Biscuit via my patchbays).
My main stereo out goes directly to my monitors.
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Mattias
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Mattias »

How do you intend to use the mixer?

Will it just stand there and act as the intermediator between your instruments and your computer (tape machine) or will
it act as part of your instrumental setup and treat the mixer as part of the creative flow?
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Alban
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Alban »

Hi Hades.

I'm very happy to get the opportunity to get my hands on this mixer very soon. Maybe it will end all my needs if i like it.
For example : one of the good tips someone gave me, was to hook up my returns into the stereo channels, instead of just at the returns of the mixer.
This is a typical trick used by dub musicians, but it gives you a lot more options on the returns you get from your FX units : EQ, extra gain,...
Absolutely, I find it essential to be able to EQ effects. Effects I use 90% of the time is reverb/delay, so yeah...

Bad point about direct outs...
I use my monitor out 1&2 to my Eventide, aux 1&2 to my Eventide
. Great, so I guess it's totally possible to use monitor auxes like "regular" ones.

These patchbays things scare me as I'm a lazy person...Read a ton about it, not sure about cabling and stuff...

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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by borg »

Mattias wrote:will it act as part of your instrumental setup and treat the mixer as part of the creative flow?
exactly the question I was gonna ask. Midas now have the M32, not cheap, but not über expensive. relative small footprint, lots of connections/routing possibilities, interfaces to your computer for recording, great fx, nice preamps,... but as most digital mixers, only one channel in focus, which is ok for mixing a band, but not if you want to use it as an instrument (which is what we (should) do).
Andy
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Alban
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Alban »

Hi Mattias.

Multiple tasks.
Sometimes, computer will be a simple digitizer for tracks entirely made with my hardware gear.
I want to be able to treat special songs with tracks separately too, with dynamic SW effects. No HW for it yet
it act as part of your instrumental setup and treat the mixer as part of the creative flow?
Absolutely

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Hades
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Hades »

Alban wrote: Bad point about direct outs...
.
yeah, I know a lot of people complained about that, and it doesn't really make sense to me why they did that either.
BUT, you might wanna check if that isn't only for the FW part, maybe the analog part of the Midas' direct is post-fader.
Don't take my word for that though, check it in the specs.
Alban wrote:
I use my monitor out 1&2 to my Eventide, aux 1&2 to my Eventide
. Great, so I guess it's totally possible to use monitor auxes like "regular" ones.

These patchbays things scare me as I'm a lazy person...Read a ton about it, not sure about cabling and stuff...
sure thing, with the Midas the mon 1&2 knobs are right above the aux 1&2 and the aux 3&4 ones, so it's dead easy to quickly send whatever you want to your external FX units.
I forgot to say, I also use the group 1&2, and the group 3&4 to connect them to my soundcards 3&4 and 5&6 inputs
(not 1&2 because those are at the front of my soundcard).
So yeah, whenever I quickly wanna record any piece of my HW, all I gotta do is open the fader of group 1&2 or 3&4,
and then push the group buttons on my individual channels.
It's really all extremely easy once you set it up the way you want it to.

About patchbays, there really isn't a ton of things to read about.
Just understand how they work, which is really easy btw, and then hook it all up the most practical way,
and then you're in heaven whenever you wanna send your channel in any different directio than you normally do,
plus, whenever you buy an extra piece of HW (and you just know that's gonna happen some day),
all you gotta do is connect to an empty slot of your patchbays...

I'll see if I can load a pic with some of my labels on it, that might show a clearer light onto this patchbay thing
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Hades »

Image

Image
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Hades
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Hades »

sorry for the big pics, but you need to see this from up close anyway to properly read the really tiny labels,
and yeah, too much to do to fucking downsize those pics again (would be quickly done on the other laptop, but can't be bothered to fire it up just for that, sorry folks)
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Alban
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Alban »

Thanks for it Hades. A picture is always more effective than words form me :mrgreen:
Moreover, I just realised I will need patchbays if I intend to use HW compressors, particular EQ and stuff...

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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by WOLF! »

Hey Hades, about your Midas mixer. Do you like that?
I hear some bad things about Behringer but maybe the fusion did not affect the Midas design (and quality).
I guess it's a upgrade for Behringer as they now can use the midas préamps and other good stuff. Just hoping they don't downgrade the Midas brand by putting cheap Behringer stuff inside. Some Behringer stuff is quite good (Ada8000 and the BCR) but they also have made some really bad things.

I'm dreaming of the A&H Zed 428 or even 436, but i'm also curious about Midas.

About the fx returns on channels.
It's nice to have that and when you don't have enough channels you can always add a small mixer like the zed10 for fx returns.

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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by borg »

At work, our main sound tech, who is all over DigiCo and our Midas XL3, and hates anything affordable (yes, a true audio snob), is actually liking the new digital behringer mixers quite a lot. Most audio folks thought Midas would go down the drain, but apparently Behringer surprised everyone with a real good and affordable digital mixer, some say even better than the Venice line. The Midas M32 is a step up from the X32.

on the other hand, those XL3 boards would cost €75.000 new in the 90s and can be had for €4.000 nowadays, if you have the space and don't have to carry it two stories up (takes six guys to put it in the FOH spot). They are definitely many classes better than the Behringer X32 or Venice boards, unrivaled in the past for live sound, very nice to have in the studio nowadays...
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by TvSkY »

Alban wrote:
a Soundcraft Signature 12MTK. Has only been released recently and seems to be a decent mixer. They also have a 22 channel version
Will check it.
and a midas venice f32
A friend is using a f24. I will have the opportunity to use this mixer for two/three weeks from tomorrow,
loud fan
Yeah what the F about this...you can change it, but no more warranty. I suppose you have to get used to it...

Indeed F32 looks like a perfect all-in-one solution. I have space so it's ok about size.

The only one I know nothing about in your list is the soundcraft Delta, but from what you say it's a bad idea.

Crest XR20 (APB Dynasonics now ?? http://www.apbdynasonics.com/products/P ... House.html) looks really nice for the size.
also you have put some big time heavy hitting old consoles there that will need serious effort like amek , dda , large midas , even the ghost will have issues . we all love the idea of having this once 100k console in our house in all its awesomeness but you need to seriously consider the realities of it . It will be massive , it will need installation , it will need onsite maintenance , it will need substantial space and power . its a big commitment for a home studio and really for just some synths making techno it probably cant be justified either logistically or sonic-ly. even a medium format desk like an amek big or touring level soundcraft is a big complex old bit of kit requiring up keep
What about their modular format...? Today if for example track 27 of a MidasF32 die, you have to bring back all the mixer, same with AH and most recent "big brand" desks.
it probably cant be justified either logistically or sonic-ly
. Well, different point of view from many muff forum users.

I looked these old mixers in order to get some coloration too, something impossible with 1000-3000€ mixers from Today. Maybe I'm completely wrong !
"You should better buy actual mixer and combine them with patchbay, good preamp, good eq, good comp...in order to get some nice coloration" :?: What about this statement?
modular helps , but a big old console is still a big old console. Its going to need work , spare parts . are their techs in your area with experience ? can you afford their rates ? can you get spare parts if needed ? can you afford those parts .

there is a reason why these 75000$ consoles are now 4000$ . same reason why a 25 year old rolls royce now costs 5% of its value!

the zed is actually modular , individual pcb per channel which is nice in its price point. the venice is in blocks of 8 from memory , but I dont know how you go disabling a block if it dies. it comes with a full 3 year warranty and seems extremely solid though.

the fan can be replaced , some people have had success , some have said its not much quieter . some people it does not bother anyway

there is a internal jumper to solder to make the FW and analog outs post fader from memory . i think it would affect the warranty though

"I looked these old mixers in order to get some coloration too, something impossible with 1000-3000€ mixers from Today."

the venice 100% provides colouration!
i

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Alban
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Alban »

At work, our main sound tech, who is all over DigiCo and our Midas XL3, and hates anything affordable (yes, a true audio snob), is actually liking the new digital behringer mixers quite a lot. Most audio folks thought Midas would go down the drain, but apparently Behringer surprised everyone with a real good and affordable digital mixer, some say even better than the Venice line. The Midas M32 is a step up from the X32.

on the other hand, those XL3 boards would cost €75.000 new in the 90s and can be had for €4.000 nowadays, if you have the space and don't have to carry it two stories up (takes six guys to put it in the FOH spot). They are definitely many classes better than the Behringer X32 or Venice boards, unrivaled in the past for live sound, very nice to have in the studio nowadays...
Just checks those boards, for sure it seems great...it's more 8000 than 4000 for the XL3 though. Anyway I can't throw 4000 €, not into my budget. Don't want digital too.

@TvSkY
modular helps , but a big old console is still a big old console. Its going to need work , spare parts . are their techs in your area with experience ? can you afford their rates ? can you get spare parts if needed ? can you afford those parts.there is a reason why these 75000$ consoles are now 4000$ . same reason why a 25 year old rolls royce now costs 5% of its value!
Well, I guess you are right, I should better look to recent consoles.

Production is stopped ? Wanted to check prices for new F32, hard to find a shop...

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Hades
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Re: Need advice from hardware techno guys !

Post by Hades »

WOLF! wrote:Hey Hades, about your Midas mixer. Do you like that?
I hear some bad things about Behringer but maybe the fusion did not affect the Midas design (and quality).
I guess it's a upgrade for Behringer as they now can use the midas préamps and other good stuff. Just hoping they don't downgrade the Midas brand by putting cheap Behringer stuff inside. Some Behringer stuff is quite good (Ada8000 and the BCR) but they also have made some really bad things.

I'm dreaming of the A&H Zed 428 or even 436, but i'm also curious about Midas.

About the fx returns on channels.
It's nice to have that and when you don't have enough channels you can always add a small mixer like the zed10 for fx returns.

I got mine shortly before Behringer bought Midas, if I'm not correct.
Mattias once replied to this same question saying he didn't see any real difference coming.
He merely thought (like you kind of said) it was more a thing of Behringer finding a cheap way (buying a smaller boutique company like Midas),
to inject their gear with know-how from the Midas engineers.

Honestly, I don't know,
of course I didn't like it when I heard about this.
But I'm also just a realist, and I know I love my Midas Venice, and I can only compare it to the way more inferior Soundcraft mixer I had before.

I think that in this price range there is little that can compare to it.
I did consider getting a Toft, but that was yet another 1000 or 1500€ more, and god knows I already spent soooo much money on my studio gear.
afaik, back when I bought it, the only other alternatives were Allen&Heath GL2400 or 3200,
or Soundcraft GB4-24 or similar models.
And yeah, the Midas VeniceF series (or currently the U series, I think) are definitely better than that.
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