Automation - what do you usually automate?

[Barfunkel]

That's the kind of skill I want to acquire.

But mate, what you ask for does not come for free. It has to come with invested time, there is no way around it.
You apparently don't want to take the time it takes to nail it? What else is there to do?

I can give you the ingredients for the soup but...you know the rest.

I appreciate the effort Mattias, I really do. You're a lot more helpful (and polite) than some other people on this forum.

And like I said, I've never said I'm not willing to put time and effort into learning. I just don't want to switch to ITB workflow, and the alternative is of course more time consuming and a LOT more expensive. It'll take me years to get to the point where it's even theoretically possible to make professional quality music without sacrificing my workflow ideals. Meanwhile, I keep on making the kind of music that I can and feel like, ie. quite lofi.

[Mattias]

As far as I recall you mentioned that you're goal is to get gear when possible to take your OTB productions farther.
That's valid.

However, I still think you should try to get over the threshold of your "workflow-ITB-dismay" and do multi tracking when possible and do small adjustments in the computer.
A little EQ is mostly what you need for your tracks, if you buy controllers and take a few hours to map it properly you wont notice the computer at all and is well integrated with your OTB workflow most likely.

I totally get the annoying mouse clicks and only being able to use one arm and do one action at the time. That's why I do set ups like how you would work with an OTB flow and I can only recommend it.

[Alume]

the only thing they did is recognize a pattern and tell you for your own good. And the only thing they want is for you to give a slight hint that you recognize that pattern too. Sure their words can be hard from time to time but thats only because the situation is fit for those words. At the end of the day all they are trying to do is help.

.

I don't agree with the help part as far as I'm concerned, of course I can't talk about Steve's intention, he's been far more patient than me in this topic.
(as much as it would fit into the scenario where all of us here are always trying to help each other at all times).
I seriously think I've given up on the helping part with mr barfunkel.
As you said : there is hardly any sign at all that he wants to listen to any kind of advice,
so my main concern is all those lurkers who haven't been into producing for that long, reading his totally unrational words and think :
"hey, so we can do it the easy way as well, we don't really need to put in all those hours"

Then why would you continue the debate? I think doing it for the lurkers is a bit of a loose end, they will figure out their selves that music is a bitch that needs taming.

Even if you lost sight of your initial ideals, surely you are still pursuing them when you get a bit irritated.

But whatever all good, it was just an assumtion.

[Hades]

the only thing they did is recognize a pattern and tell you for your own good. And the only thing they want is for you to give a slight hint that you recognize that pattern too. Sure their words can be hard from time to time but thats only because the situation is fit for those words. At the end of the day all they are trying to do is help.

.

I don't agree with the help part as far as I'm concerned, of course I can't talk about Steve's intention, he's been far more patient than me in this topic.
(as much as it would fit into the scenario where all of us here are always trying to help each other at all times).
I seriously think I've given up on the helping part with mr barfunkel.
As you said : there is hardly any sign at all that he wants to listen to any kind of advice,
so my main concern is all those lurkers who haven't been into producing for that long, reading his totally unrational words and think :
"hey, so we can do it the easy way as well, we don't really need to put in all those hours"

Then why would you continue the debate? I think doing it for the lurkers is a bit of a loose end, they will figure out their selves that music is a bitch that needs taming.

Even if you lost sight of your initial ideals, surely you are still pursuing them when you get a bit irritated.

But whatever all good, it was just an assumtion.

why would I continue the debate ?
because I don't like walking away from any discussion if I feel there's still something rational to add to the debate,
simple as that.
if people would start just calling each other names and insulting each other constantly, I would walk away asap.

but Steve said the same thing above Alume : we don't like misinformation being spread here.
it gives people a false image of what making electronical music is about,
and I will fight any projection of such a false image.

that's all there is to it JJ

[Alume]

Oke oke, fair enough.

[Hades]

What tracks of mine did you happen to listen to Hades btw? There's a wide variety of stuff on my SC site, from humour music (where production values are of very little concern) to the experimental to 45 minute concept tracks about a fictional character to portuguese love songs to more standard techno and house and occasionally ambient. Some is very poor sound quality, some is better, depending on what I thought was worth spending time on..

I just went through the first 7 or 8 tracks on your SC page.

look man, I'm gone for a few days starting from tomorrow morning.
now I'm off to watch the last episode of True Detective season 2 (which has been a major disappointment mostly),

maybe I'll get back to this in a few days, maybe not.

I think this discussion has been going on for far too long anyway.

and tbh : it would never occur to me to compare myself with someone like Robert Hood,
even if by any odd chance I'd happen to have one single track that might even be comparable to one single track of Robert Hood,
such a thing would still never occur to me.
maybe think about that one for a while

[Faust]

but I didn't keep up with the times and my skills got outdated so I quit for a long time.

Sounds.....

kind of lazy.

I'm assuming you play cash tables (pretty difficult to 'make a living' off SnG's and Tourneys). And assuming you play something like 5 or 6 tables at a time (again, pretty difficult to 'make a living' if you are not multi tabling at least this amount), finally assuming you are playing the odds, variance, and your cards, rather than your opponents (difficult to play the players online if you are multi tabling).

That shit definitely isn't fun.

Dunno man, I could be wrong of course, but Its a rare breed that finds that shit fun; grinding like that is hard work (because it becomes a bot like automated process, going through the motions and muscle memory type shit).

If you find that fun, power to you man, honestly, respect.

- however, automating a parameter spoils your music making fun?

c'mon man, I think you just like arguing

Actually I do find that fun, assuming I have an edge over the field and can trust myself winning long term. Like I said, I don't recommend it for most people. You have to be able to reach a certain state for mind, where you can be calm and calculative for hours a day with very little room for errors. I like that. It's not much like making music with a computer, actually very very far from it. You can always correct errors when you make music and you can go through any emotion, without it making you lose money. Calm and calculative aren't exactly traits I'd associate with musicians.

Well then, fair doos if thats the case, but my point was exactly that I believe that it kind of is very much like certain elements of the making music on a computer process, those certain elements being the actual 'work' like parts, the details if you will. It requires focus and attention to the nuances. Grinding tables like that is very technical and doesnt rely on the more creative side of poker, it relies on the technicalities - agreed? Calm and calculative are certainly traits I personally would associate with (many) musicians actually, especially for that process of knuckling down at the least fun parts. Thats exactly the hat I would wear when in that stage. The more reckless, pissing in the wind, running naked through the streets hat is what I would wear when jamming out and creating the music, and that I would compare to a more fun looser style of poker. Thats what I was trying to get at. You were talking poker and I thought ' hey heres a good way to look at and compare it. That is exactly why I said,

Dunno man, I could be wrong of course, but Its a rare breed that finds that shit fun; grinding like that is hard work (because it becomes a bot like automated process, going through the motions and muscle memory type shit).

If you find that fun, power to you man, honestly, respect.

- however, automating a parameter spoils your music making fun?

In essence asking - you can grind like that - but hate grinding like that in music?
It just feels like a slight contradiction of character traits, which I think then confuses further development of the discussion. And that, is what I find frustrating.
I'm not having a dig (I dont think you would give a shit if I was), Im making an observation and trying to add to the discussion myself (poker was mentioned and encouraged me to join in). I did try to keep my post a little jokey too, as said no dig was intended. I think you really help fuel a lot of the discussions on here, you add a lot of energy to them (or else we are all sat round typing in agreement which is boring as hell).

Anyways - Peace and love.

[Faust]

A: Barfunkel - man you are frustrating.

Forgot to answer this...

Why am I frustrating? Because I like 80's and 90's music and production methods more than I like current music and methods? Why exactly is that frustrating? It's just one man's opinion, I'm not saying that the government should make plugins illegal. You're free to use those, I just don't usually like using those, because of workflow issues I have with them.

Well in part, this above is frustrating. I never once mentioned anything about 80's or 90's music and production methods. I myself take joy and influence from every style or period of music and engineering. Im a musician - I write music - Im not trying to make techno; heavily influenced by it enough for people to categorise it as such, yes for sure, but, Im trying to make music and all forms and techniques are fair game for me. So I dont care what you like, I probably like it too so high five.
I never mentioned plugins, I dont care what you use, not an issue with me.
Its totally irrelevant to what we are talking about, thats the frustration.

If this was a guitar forum and I made a post about wanting to play like Hendrix or Clapton, people would point fingers at me and laugh and tell me to forget that old fashioned shit and use the latest guitar emulation plugin instead (which actually sound pretty convincing in 2016, so I would totally understand the point, even if it wasn't my way of doing things).

Conjecture your honour - Leading the witness Again, I said nothing about any of this, you are using a made up example as, well,... an example. Its frustrating because it just kills discussion on the spot and we all run around in circle.

But seriously, who cares anyway right, s'all good, its just a bit of banter and discourse on a forum. I mean no offence whatsoever to you, just joining for a change.

Peace and love

[Faust]

please don't think I'm saying I know tons about poker because I really don't, but I've seen enough about gamblers to know that most likely 80 to 90% of the players fool themselves into thinking it's all about skills, and then when they go berzerk on what they think is a "winning strike", they lose what they won eventually, and then talk about "bad luck".
From what I've seen, the main problem is too many people not playing on skills and always eventually letting their emotions run away with them.

100% !!
This sounds brutal, but those are the kind of guys that good players are searching out, hoping they will throw their cash their way. Its fkn ruthless really and one of the (many many) reasons I dont play anymore, to be a winner you have to prey on the losers. Like I say, kind of brutal really.

Do you seriously think there is a chance you'll actually win more than enough times to make a living out of this if casino's let poker games into their rooms ?

Actually they take a cut (called a rake) of each pot . You are not playing against the house so to speak - The casino host the game and take a cut of each pot. You play against other players cash and not the house.

I did not know that, thank you for this information.
It explains why casino's would allow a game into their house if the game is all about skill and not luck.
Casino's don't win on luck, they win on odds, and they perfectly calculate their odds every time.

Yeah thats it exactly man. Its free cash for the casinos, win or lose, they get the same. Good players think like the casino - win on odds, calculate the odds as close to perfect as you can (I actually had software that does this live as you play [as many do, its totally allowed]), only play when the odds are in your favour.
Its a super deep game, really it is, but yeah, I wont bore you any more about it good sir

Anyhooo -

thx for your valuable input !
you should post more often.

Dead nice chap so you are Very nice thing to say, thank you Hades!
I fear posting on here would become a rabbit hole for me. I have enough of them to go down as it is!

[Lost to the Void]

So getting back to automation and the OP......

I just realise that your context was live performance.

I think automate anything that you feel adds something.

Live pa's have been my thing for quite a long time now so I like to switch it up but generally stuff I like to have easily controllable are...

Low and high pass on every channel. Couple of sends on each channel going to reverb and delay. Control of those reverb and delays. Generally the length of reverb the length of delay in steps and the regen/feedback
Cutoff and res on relevant synths
Envelope control on key drums (always handy on hats and rides)
Envelope controls on synth for amp and filter

With just these you can add a wealth of interest to your live performance or live recording.

If talking in a recording context then I like to humanise a lot of stuff by having subtle variation of all sorts of things via lfo's

All the more "feature" stuff which could be anything
Pulse width
Ring mod freq
Cutoff
Grain size
Buffer size

Whatever..... if it is a feature sound that drives the tune then I prefer to control it directly either by assigned controller or on the synth itself if hardware.
I don't like drawing in automation unless it is background stuff or fades or something.
It's nice to "perform" the stuff for me, but that's down to my background. I was a musician long before I was a producer.

[Barfunkel]

and tbh : it would never occur to me to compare myself with someone like Robert Hood,
even if by any odd chance I'd happen to have one single track that might even be comparable to one single track of Robert Hood,
such a thing would still never occur to me.
maybe think about that one for a while

I didn't compare myself to Robert Hood on a musical level. I said that his music and arrangement is much better. I was merely comparing the sonics of my serious track to a 90's track that is at least somewhat comparable in terms of fidelity. I could have of course used a lesser track than something from Minimal Nation, but what would be the point using something that I don't know for a fact it sounds good in a club setting? My take on that sound is not of course not spot on, I don't have any period equipment. Plus, I rarely use those short clicky kicks Hood often uses, I prefer longer more pounding kicks. I just think my Hoodism-series sounds decent on a sonical level, especially considering it's not been mastered. My track has a bit too much bass, that's often common in headphone productions, but other than that, I don't think my track sounds bad per se, considering what I'm aiming for.

If you listened to the first few tracks on my SC, you probably heard the recent uploads, which include a couple of humour tracks, the washing machine sampling track, a track made with a Nintendo DS, mixer distortion demos, the unfinished Phil Collins cover which has way too much bass and stuff like that. I've done much better stuff, fidelity-wise. I tend to post everything I make, because it helps me to be more objective and I can get useful comments.

[Wiu]

I haven't listened to your tracks, but if you know something's wrong with it why parade it around and not just spend a little time fixing it and then post it!? You mention too much bass a few times, so maybe you should be aware of that and allow for it? We don't all have a perfect production environment. I sure as shit don't. It's not difficult to throw the resulting WAV into a DAW and use an EQ to just do some basic adjustments. Spectrum analyzers are your friend here too. What's the point of posting stuff to gain useful comments when you already know where some of the issues are? Yes yes, it's just a hobby for you (as it is for me) but improvement is a big fucking part of any hobby surely!

[Barfunkel]

I haven't listened to your tracks, but if you know something's wrong with it why parade it around and not just spend a little time fixing it and then post it!? You mention too much bass a few times, so maybe you should be aware of that and allow for it? We don't all have a perfect production environment. I sure as shit don't. It's not difficult to throw the resulting WAV into a DAW and use an EQ to just do some basic adjustments. Spectrum analyzers are your friend here too. What's the point of posting stuff to gain useful comments when you already know where some of the issues are? Yes yes, it's just a hobby for you (as it is for me) but improvement is a big fucking part of any hobby surely!

I did actually home master it, cutting some of the excess bass away with EQ. I just think I was too gentle with it. It sounded good a year ago when I did, but listening to it now reveals there's still too much bass. Working with just headphones is not easy, your ears adjust to things being wrong very quickly, you often hear mistakes only months later, when you can be more objective about it.

Dunno about useful comments. Useful comment would be something like "there's a resonant spike in the snare at around 700hz, you should use a parametric EQ with a narrow Q and cut it out to make it sound more pleasant" or "The chord progression would be better, if the third chord was a D minor ninth instead of an F major seventh". Instead, I've gotten comments like "Your production sucks ass". That was an exact quote. True or not, that's not exactly helpful, polite or professional. Saying things like that online to strangers, especially if they're just hobbyists with very different goals than professionals have is just not respectul.

[arkos]

"Your production sucks ass". That was an exact quote.

People saying shit like that are only revealing their own weakness. How bad they must be feeling on the inside. I recommend drugs, that way you only feel bad when your out

[Will Frances]

Some healthy heated debate up in here

[Will Frances]

I usually automate whatever I'm working with at the time when making music/ designing sound, i.e. a layer/ plugin. I have a small controller of 8 pots which i constantly assign to what i want/ need and then delete the assignment as i move forward to the next automation. I often resample live also, recording both midi data and audio for more versatility. Ill also automate with the mouse for again more results. Sometimes i'll do two or three passes or even more to mess it up. Some times ill map multiple things to the same pot, sometimes i'll even resample to an audio track and not even record the automation data so its printed to the audio but i can't go back and tweak it as automation this forces me to accept my action and make decisions to ditch and or move forward.

[And_Ends_Battle]

Dont know why you bothered defending yourself Barfunkle, every post you make is just something else for guys to strawman, completely misrepresenting everything you say whilst getting drunk on their computer and high fiving each other about their forgettable and idealess generic techno output. The useful info in this place is just too diluted by aging boring depressives holding some lame unofficial self-help circle. I cant read any more of this shit, Il leave you to it.

[Alume]

By all means suite yourself, but dont conclude anything about anyone when your mind is poluted with negativity.

[Mono-xID]

Dont know why you bothered defending yourself Barfunkle, every post you make is just something else for guys to strawman, completely misrepresenting everything you say whilst getting drunk on their computer and high fiving each other about their forgettable and idealess generic techno output. The useful info in this place is just too diluted by aging boring depressives holding some lame unofficial self-help circle. I cant read any more of this shit, Il leave you to it.

Obvious trolling ???

[Hades]

By all means suite yourself, but dont conclude anything about anyone when your mind is poluted with negativity.

ow god you made my day with this one !

waarvoor dank !