NOT ALL DAW'S ARE EQUAL .

[Mattias]

I understand the curiosity about this subject but...

It all nulls when the right circumstances are met.

[bergertron]

That is not ableton in the video.. I don't know what DAW he is using.. maybe reaper?

I know it's not Ableton, It was a joke. Jay "Ableton all over it" Lumen doesn't use Ableton. Never mind... tough crowd.

planar, you almost made me spill my beer on my keyboard,
even more so when some of the others just didn't get the very obvious joke.

Would only love to be drinking beer at this time

[Aline N]

I understand the curiosity about this subject but...

It all nulls when the right circumstances are met.

I agree with u Matt . just wanted to voice more about the workflow and less about the sound Engine. but you know how heated this DAW wars get !!

[Lost to the Void]

Pages and pages of subjectivity.

[Lost to the Void]

And also


jazz cables.

[Ploy]

Logic sounds better than Ableton. That's what my ears tell me. I don't give a fuck about null tests either. I've tracked in the same source using the same gear and I thought one sounds better than the other. Some people might get bent out of shape over the above statement but its not a big deal to me...

It not unlike saying a Ferrari is the same as a Porsche. They are not the same but they are both sports cars...

A nice microcosm of why this argument (and thread) is pointless. One side refers to science, the other side ignores it because they think/want their ears to tell them differently. Meanwhile some newbie looking for production advice comes across this thread and start perpetuating these things they've read on the internet as truth.

Just use whatever tool you prefer and make music with it, the differences between DAW audio engines (if there are any) are so tiny it's not worth bothering with. Using one DAW over another won't make your tunes sound better, so just pick the one you like the workflow of the most.

I don't have some kind of bias agenda that makes me want/think that Logic sounds better. It's just an observation I have made. All things being equal. Same source, same convertors, same same same... I cannot explain it & I sm not particularly invested in the debate in any way. This is why I said I don't careabout null tests. A null test is designed specifically to see if things can be made to sound the same. The conclusion seems to be yes you can make Ableton and Logic sound the same. Is a null test the same as real world everyday working environment? Maybe, maybe not. The people who insist upon using exact "scientific methods" seem to be quite invested in the idea... I could give a fuck about it one way or the other. I did my test because a friend had asked me if I preferred the sound of one or the other when I was using both. Previous to that the idea had never even crossed my mind to compare. Once I did my non scientific experiment I conveyed my thoughts to him and some discussion around the idea ensued mostly it was regarding panning laws and shit of that nature.

Believe me when I say I am not trying to convince you or anybody else as I have nothing to gain. It's a casual observation, that's all. Now if some noob comes along and cannot understand what I have written above and they want to base their opinions on what I have written that's not my problem when somebody comes along with a null test and proves them wrong. Anybody's du interested in the subject that much should do a test themselves and draw their own conclusions.

[Aline N]

Logic sounds better than Ableton. That's what my ears tell me. I don't give a fuck about null tests either. I've tracked in the same source using the same gear and I thought one sounds better than the other. Some people might get bent out of shape over the above statement but its not a big deal to me...

It not unlike saying a Ferrari is the same as a Porsche. They are not the same but they are both sports cars...

A nice microcosm of why this argument (and thread) is pointless. One side refers to science, the other side ignores it because they think/want their ears to tell them differently. Meanwhile some newbie looking for production advice comes across this thread and start perpetuating these things they've read on the internet as truth.

Just use whatever tool you prefer and make music with it, the differences between DAW audio engines (if there are any) are so tiny it's not worth bothering with. Using one DAW over another won't make your tunes sound better, so just pick the one you like the workflow of the most.

I don't have some kind of bias agenda that makes me want/think that Logic sounds better. It's just an observation I have made. All things being equal. Same source, same convertors, same same same... I cannot explain it & I sm not particularly invested in the debate in any way. This is why I said I don't careabout null tests. A null test is designed specifically to see if things can be made to sound the same. The conclusion seems to be yes you can make Ableton and Logic sound the same. Is a null test the same as real world everyday working environment? Maybe, maybe not. The people who insist upon using exact "scientific methods" seem to be quite invested in the idea... I could give a fuck about it one way or the other. I did my test because a friend had asked me if I preferred the sound of one or the other when I was using both. Previous to that the idea had never even crossed my mind to compare. Once I did my non scientific experiment I conveyed my thoughts to him and some discussion around the idea ensued mostly it was regarding panning laws and shit of that nature.

Believe me when I say I am not trying to convince you or anybody else as I have nothing to gain. It's a casual observation, that's all. Now if some noob comes along and cannot understand what I have written above and they want to base their opinions on what I have written that's not my problem when somebody comes along with a null test and proves them wrong. Anybody's du interested in the subject that much should do a test themselves and draw their own conclusions.

+1

[Lost to the Void]

Just dont worry about it people.

The sky is not going to fall on your head, the world is not going to stop spinning, and I seriously doubt most of you have the accuracy in your monitoring environment to even hear minute differences in an objective way to assess things on this minute level, let alone conduct accurate double blind testing to remove subjective influence or expectation bias.

Just make fucking music and stop wasting time worrying over this kind of useless bullshit. Or go out and buy some jazz cables and some clockwise spun ceramic cable lifts to lay your cables on.

[Hades]

can I have some special acoustic crystals with that please ?

[terryfalafel]

I think it's less a matter of working out which DAW sounds better and more a matter of trying to understand why people want to ignore fundamental facts like the effect of expectation bias when they listen and compare.

Audio in general (not just studio and production) is chockablock with people who almost wilfully take on a very ignorant attitude. Few other fields of interest seem to allow or to tolerate this.

[Planar]

I don't have some kind of bias agenda that makes me want/think that Logic sounds better. It's just an observation I have made. All things being equal. Same source, same convertors, same same same... I cannot explain it & I sm not particularly invested in the debate in any way. This is why I said I don't careabout null tests. A null test is designed specifically to see if things can be made to sound the same. The conclusion seems to be yes you can make Ableton and Logic sound the same. Is a null test the same as real world everyday working environment? Maybe, maybe not. The people who insist upon using exact "scientific methods" seem to be quite invested in the idea... I could give a fuck about it one way or the other. I did my test because a friend had asked me if I preferred the sound of one or the other when I was using both. Previous to that the idea had never even crossed my mind to compare. Once I did my non scientific experiment I conveyed my thoughts to him and some discussion around the idea ensued mostly it was regarding panning laws and shit of that nature.

People can believe what they want to believe, as long as they're happy then it's all good. What grates is the insistence on ignoring any empirical evidence and not acknowledging that cognitive bias exists. You're obviously not stupid, you know and said the differences are down to metering/panning law etc, it's not an issue of audio engine quality. Without any form of measurement there isn't anything to compare, we're left with discussing peoples opinions based on the capabilities of their hearing. Given the majority of people on dance music production forums have probably spent a lot of time listening to loud music in clubs, are probably not 10 years old with a perfect range of hearing and are making fundamental EQ mistakes in their own productions, I think any claim something sounds better than another should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. It leaves nothing to discuss, just entrenched opinion.

Now if some noob comes along and cannot understand what I have written above and they want to base their opinions on what I have written that's not my problem when somebody comes along with a null test and proves them wrong. Anybody's du interested in the subject that much should do a test themselves and draw their own conclusions.

The kind of people we've seen through here over the years, makes me think that some people are completely incapable of thinking for themselves. Then we have idiots like my man Aline in this thread and his Jay Lumen comment. Stupidity everywhere. *

Audio in general (not just studio and production) is chockablock with people who almost wilfully take on a very ignorant attitude. Few other fields of interest seem to allow or to tolerate this.

.



* That's another joke Aline. I like you really.

[Lost to the Void]

I think it's less a matter of working out which DAW sounds better and more a matter of trying to understand why people want to ignore fundamental facts like the effect of expectation bias when they listen and compare.

Audio in general (not just studio and production) is chockablock with people who almost wilfully take on a very ignorant attitude. Few other fields of interest seem to allow or to tolerate this.

Its because music is a very subjective experience, and it is also very emotional.
In a way it is like religion, people dont like their beliefs to be disproven with science because of the emotional connection they have.
"I" can hear the difference. And if you are proven wrong then your own physiology is in question. Damn that science it MUST be wrong, i dont care etc etc. its an audiophile cliche response.
Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.

[Markus Wolf]

I think this argument wether right or wrong is completely useless. I like the post but what is actually being discussed is negligible IMHO. Think about it. Oh and while this topic has reached page 4 how much music have you created? This comment is not directed at anybody in particular, just seems to be better things music wise to focus on.

cheers

[Aline N]

fuck u Planar !! i like u too lol .

[And_Ends_Battle]

I think it's less a matter of working out which DAW sounds better and more a matter of trying to understand why people want to ignore fundamental facts like the effect of expectation bias when they listen and compare.

Audio in general (not just studio and production) is chockablock with people who almost wilfully take on a very ignorant attitude. Few other fields of interest seem to allow or to tolerate this.

Its because music is a very subjective experience, and it is also very emotional.
In a way it is like religion, people dont like their beliefs to be disproven with science because of the emotional connection they have.
"I" can hear the difference. And if you are proven wrong then your own physiology is in question. Damn that science it MUST be wrong, i dont care etc etc. its an audiophile cliche response.
Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.

I agree, especially with what terry said. Its just such a waste of time people holding fervent opinions that completely ignore the basics of psychology, particular bias in perception. However it is technically the lack of cognitive dissonance that is the problem here. People saying they can hear a difference but accept that they can't actually hear a difference when blind tested should be uncomfortable holding these two contradictory ideas but are not. That is because they lack cognitive dissonance, not because they have it. Cognitive dissonance is the unease you should experience when your beliefs contradict themselves. It is a very common mistake to use it to mean the exact opposite and assume it allows you to hold opposing ideas simultaneously.

Anyway, nitpicking aside "Just make fucking music and stop wasting time worrying over this kind of useless bullshit." is the answer. The only thing that really matters is not some imaginary sound quality difference with particular DAWS, its the ideas you have and execution of those ideas that the tools allow.

[Lost to the Void]

I think it's less a matter of working out which DAW sounds better and more a matter of trying to understand why people want to ignore fundamental facts like the effect of expectation bias when they listen and compare.

Audio in general (not just studio and production) is chockablock with people who almost wilfully take on a very ignorant attitude. Few other fields of interest seem to allow or to tolerate this.

Its because music is a very subjective experience, and it is also very emotional.
In a way it is like religion, people dont like their beliefs to be disproven with science because of the emotional connection they have.
"I" can hear the difference. And if you are proven wrong then your own physiology is in question. Damn that science it MUST be wrong, i dont care etc etc. its an audiophile cliche response.
Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.

I agree, especially with what terry said. Its just such a waste of time people holding fervent opinions that completely ignore the basics of psychology, particular bias in perception. However it is technically the lack of cognitive dissonance that is the problem here. People saying they can hear a difference but accept that they can't actually hear a difference when blind tested should be uncomfortable holding these two contradictory ideas but are not. That is because they lack cognitive dissonance, not because they have it. Cognitive dissonance is the unease you should experience when your beliefs contradict themselves. It is a very common mistake to use it to mean the exact opposite and assume it allows you to hold opposing ideas simultaneously.

Anyway, nitpicking aside "Just make fucking music and stop wasting time worrying over this kind of useless bullshit." is the answer. The only thing that really matters is not some imaginary sound quality difference with particular DAWS, its the ideas you have and execution of those ideas that the tools allow.

Cognitive dissonance can occur when 2 opposing views are held, or when presented with new information that contradicts current beliefs. The person experiencing then tries to evade the feeling, denial being one method.

Ie "I don't care about the science, I KNOW I can hear the difference" which someone basically said in this very thread.

No?

[msl]

Ableton is the main culprit here imo (pan law, sucky summing algo, etc). Yes Logic does sound better, PTHD even better. Though Ableton has improved a lot with the latest releases and will continue to do so.

Music by its nature is subjective. Any engineer worth his salt will tell you its not about specs and graphs, its about how gear actually sounds.

That said if you can't make a decent tune in any modern DAW its not the DAW's fault.

.

[Lost to the Void]

Ableton is the main culprit here imo (pan law, sucky summing algo, etc). Yes Logic does sound better, PTHD even better.

.

[Lost to the Void]

Robert Henke (professor of sound design at University of Berlin) when discussing one of the many "but this DAW sounds bettaz coz blah" conversations, had this to say in regards to the mystical panning law that people like to drag about.

1. if you feed in a normalised signal one side will clip. If the panning law creates a 6dB boost you will need this much headroom if you want to avoid clipping

2. regardless of the panning law, each static panning can be created with any software by the right settings of the pan and the volume control.

3. the only difference is how it sounds / feels if you simply turn the pan knob from full left to full right.

4. panning only changes volumes, never the sound itself.

5. in Live, the boost at the extremes is + 3dB.

So essentially, ALL DAW`s can handle panning in exactly the same way, they just attenuate level differently, which all can be compensated for my simply.........
adjusting your fader volume.

Yep.......

[msl]

Could care less about being 'right' just going on my own personal experience and that of many other active working producers I know.

All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal.


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