KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
Pelecaras
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KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Pelecaras »

I don't know about anyone else but when I produce techno I don't pay any attention to key or scales. Admittedly I make very loop based, relentless techno (for me the golden age of techno was 96-99, but that's for another post) my stuff has no melodies but I don't even bother tuning my drums or percussion.

I know from reading the posts that a lot of you produce intelligent techno and maybe use a certain key? ( I'm not intelligent enough to make anything other than banging stuff). I once read that A minor is popular?

How do others feel about KEY and SCALES when producing techno?
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Barfunkel »

I don't have perfect pitch, so I have to use my brains while I make music. I pay very close attention to the key and scale I'm in, and don't usually wander off too far from them. If I just bang the keys randomly it sounds like shit 99% of the time.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Pelecaras »

Yeah, I suppose there is that danger of it sounding like shit. Although I must reassure you that I don't blindly bang the keys.

I suppose what I meant to say was that I like atonal/discordant qualities.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Barfunkel »

Usually (though not always of course) you have to know the rules if you want to break them intentionally. A bit of music theory never hurt anyone. If you make atonal music without knowing how to make the normal stuff there's a huge chance for just sounding like shitty chaos.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by ozias_leduc »

i do, although just by ear, i don't know much musical theory. some of my favourite stuff happens when it's melodic but edging on dissonance

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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by blnn »

Well, I think is useful to know what are and how to use, mainly if you want combine some parts/synths specially if they are rich in harmonics.
You can make it too just by ear, but results appear early if you know about this.
It works well if you want to add some pad (or even atmosphere) if it is in key with the synths, even if are short, rhythmic...

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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Pelecaras »

Perhaps I have explained it wrong and I apologise for not being more thorough in my first post. I am well versed in music theory having been in a band for many years when I was younger and I do create other genres if I'm not in the mood to make techno.

I'm not saying I don't have any tonal relationships in my music, I'm just saying that I don't stick rigidly to any key or mode.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Lost to the Void »

I do everything by ear with techno.
Generally if I find a part just won't fit no matter what I do, it's because it needs to be tuned.
And same when a whole tune isn't working then it's because a lot of stuff is out of whack.
Once the amount of dissonance in the track gets too high then it stops working.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Barfunkel »

Lost to the Void wrote:I do everything by ear with techno.
I could never do that. I just don't have the ears (or the brains) for that. I have to know exactly what key and scale I'm working in, otherwise it just sounds like shit in the end. I do sometimes wander off scale, but I still have to know what I'm doing.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by innovine »

You will find that people who don't know any theory will say things like 'you don't need to know theory; if it sounds good it is good'. That's very nice, but doesnt help much when things don't sound good. I've not heard anyone who hnows any theory saying that its useless, damaged their creative abilities or whatever.
That said however, theory in techno is rather primitive, and often ignored (for better or worse), so it's not like you need to know what you are doing to 'sound techno'.

If you ever intend to play you tunes out, its useful to know that most club soundsystems will give a decent bass response down to G, F# or F, but you risk your bottom end disappearing if you use a key below that.

If you want your music easily mixed by a dj, especially in more melodic tracks, these same common keys are worth considering so you don't clash horribly with ever other track.

Knowing some scales can help you easily add a bit of an exotic sound, as arabian or eastern scales are easy to hear but you might have trouble writing a convincing oriental melody otherwise.

At the very least, know the difference between major and minor scales, how to add a 7th or 9th, how to invert a chord, and for gods sake be able to tune your drums. You can always choose not to later, but being able to hear when your drums are out of key is worth the practice, believe me.

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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Planar »

What Innovine says.

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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Lost to the Void »

Barfunkel wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:I do everything by ear with techno.
I could never do that. I just don't have the ears (or the brains) for that. I have to know exactly what key and scale I'm working in, otherwise it just sounds like shit in the end. I do sometimes wander off scale, but I still have to know what I'm doing.

It just comes with experience and lots and lots of time. I been doing this for a very long time now.

There is a shortcut if you are interested.
I've recommended it to a lot of people that I have taught in the studio, and most have said they found it very helpful.

http://www.earmaster.com/
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by innovine »

You're no doubt tuning things to keys and scales instinctively, without knowing their names.

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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by nomadjames »

I was thinking about this one this morning, two new pieces of technology (to me) have really changed my way of thinking about music theory: Key recognition in DJing software and In Key Mode on the Push. I don't use either one all the time, but both are always there. Every new (digital) tune I got is key analyzed by Traktor, and a lot of times when I am writing music in Ableton, the root key of the bassline (which is usually written around the tone of my kick drum) is the root key of a minor scale, just as a starting point. Never really thought about it like that until I bought a Push. Now the newest version of Ableton has the tuner built in, so you can tune your samples and shit with that. I haven't tried it yet. I remember in a video with the drum and bass producer Audio, he said he has a tuner loaded on the channel he auditions samples on, so he always know what key every sample is in.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Mslwte »

I usually find that when I start adding theory into what I'm doing that I loose something, it just doesn't sound wonky enough to me. It sound to straight and nice. If you listened to my music you'll know the type of sound I'm going for.

In a way I'm anti techno half the time I make techno, if you catch my drift. I don't like the idea that you have to make music to sound "right" on a sound system, there is a limitation in your freedom straight away. So many of my favourite tracks (other peoples productions) are tracks that don't sound precise on a system.

If I was an EDM producer or whatever then theory is critcal but techno/experimental it is not.

The only theory I use really is flicking through some midi chord presets to see if I find one that I like. Or when I'm making non techno stuff.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Mslwte »

Let's be honest, music is all about listening, which you do with your ears.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Mslwte »

innovine wrote: If you ever intend to play you tunes out, its useful to know that most club soundsystems will give a decent bass response down to G, F# or F, but you risk your bottom end disappearing if you use a key below that.
I might try this and see what happens.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Lost to the Void »

innovine wrote:You're no doubt tuning things to keys and scales instinctively, without knowing their names.
Oh of course, it becomes natural after time, I do know the key, most of the time anyway, if I think about it.
Still, I just finished making my Doom metal album and had to spend quite a while working out what key some of the tunes were in after the fact, to help when stuff goes for remixing.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by Lost to the Void »

Mslwte wrote:I usually find that when I start adding theory into what I'm doing that I loose something, it just doesn't sound wonky enough to me. It sound to straight and nice. If you listened to my music you'll know the type of sound I'm going for.

In a way I'm anti techno half the time I make techno, if you catch my drift. I don't like the idea that you have to make music to sound "right" on a sound system, there is a limitation in your freedom straight away. So many of my favourite tracks (other peoples productions) are tracks that don't sound precise on a system.

If I was an EDM producer or whatever then theory is critcal but techno/experimental it is not.

The only theory I use really is flicking through some midi chord presets to see if I find one that I like. Or when I'm making non techno stuff.
Don`t blame music theory for that, blame yourself for applying it inappropriately.
Dissonance and noise are all accounted for within the wide world of music theory.

Some of the best noise producers are well versed in their theory and understand about pacing, juxtaposition, texture and so on.
William Bennet knows his theory very well.

You own tunes exhibit musicality, with elements fitting in with the predominent key of the piece, juxtaposed with dissonance, though not too much as too be overly chaotic and dissonant.

Whether or not you are aware of applying theory just means you have a natural ear, or a learned one, but never-the-less your music conforms to a certain musicality.
There is other noisey techno that just doesn`t quite cut the mustard compared to yours, because there is an innate lack of musicality and stiffness (I find percs stuff to be really stiff rhythmically and dissonant without musicality or soul, for example).

Theory, or knowledge of it, does not limit you in any way. YOU limit you.
The theory is just what it is, a tool to be used and abused.
However what it can do is expand your horizons immensely by opening new doors you may not have been aware of.

What you choose to do when you walk through these new doors is then up to you.
If you choose to rigidly follow the rules or not, it is up to you, but it is not a hindrance to know what they are.

And this is coming from someone who signed up completely to the words of throbbing gristle many years ago, when I started on my music journey.

I got a copy of RE Search magazine that had an interview with TG when I was a youth.
And in the interview they were discussing what was happening in punk and how industrial emerged.

And Gen said
"In punk, you merely needed to learn 2 chords, and you could start a band. So we thought, why learn any chords at all?"

However I since realised that increasing your knowledge is not a problem, it`s how you decide to use the knowledge that matters.
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Re: KEYS are for locks and SCALES belong on fish ???

Post by nomadjames »

Mslwte wrote:
innovine wrote: If you ever intend to play you tunes out, its useful to know that most club soundsystems will give a decent bass response down to G, F# or F, but you risk your bottom end disappearing if you use a key below that.
I might try this and see what happens.
Yeah this kinda relates to what i was saying about getting your bass and kick working together...I kinda start with one bass note that works well with the kick and that determines (loosely) what key I'm gonna work in. I do find that the Push can make you write kinda sterile stuff if you stick to the in-key mode all the time. What is neat is that I have a keyboard as well, so I play stuff on that and can see when I am in and out of the key that the Push is set to.
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