Mixer advice?

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
Ploy
skaghead
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:00 am
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Ploy »

A lot of it has to do with the quality of the components and the signal path. As an example some older boards like a Soundcraft Delta (iirc) have individual channel strips. This means that if you have a problem with a channel you can physically remove the channel strip from the chassis to repair it or replace it. This is not possible with a board like a Mackie that has a single pcb. If one channel goes down you have to send your whole board away for repair, whereas with something like an old delta you could send off the strip for repair and continue to use the board in the meantime. This all leads up to something known as THD, (total harmonic distortion). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_h ... distortion

A discrete signal path (like a delta) is prone to less crosstalk and interference because the signal is travelling along a discrete path on that single strip to the point where it is summed with the other channels. As opposed to a single pcb where the chance for crosstalk and interference is much higher so it will end up that there is a greater possibility for noise to be introduced to the signal.

Another aspect that one would find with higher quality boards is a greater amount of headroom. As one sends more and more signals down the channels the total amplitude is increasing with each signal added.(+3 or +4 db) the compentents in the board of a greater quality are able to better deal with this increase because they are of better quality. At the end of the day what may overload a cheap board and distort would sound just find on a quality console. Another example. The SSL desks show red on the gain I put before it's actually clipping. One is hitting the red and driving the board hard but it doesn't sound bad it sounds good when it starts to distort a little.

Sorry I am not an engineer or a tech so I cannot explain all the details in depth as much as I might like to with all the correct terminology. I have used enough different boards that I know I can hear and feel a difference. A 100 mil fader on a quality board glides with a touch vs pushing a 60 mil fader.

Hope that helps.

User avatar
Hepta
I Love YOU!!!
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:56 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hepta »

Thanks for the input again. Both of you. Right now i'm trying to justify whether my purchase was good or not. Maybe I could get a better one (used) for the same price. Hmm...
Lost to the Void wrote:You can get perfectly good results from a low priced mixer if you literally just use it as a through board, but stuff like the EQ will be way below the quality you could get ITB.
Gotcha. What I want really is to sum up my gear so I can record some live jamming, the Octatrack does not have enough inputs for that. I think the 1402 will do fine for now.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Lost to the Void »

You could just buy a summing mixer if this is all you want. You will get better quality for your money then as the components are devoted to just that, with no money going on other parts you won`t be using.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hades »

Planar wrote:This has reminded me that I miss Oddmyth. Where did he go?
yep, miss him too.
I supposed he's just too busy with real life.

some day, just like Terminator, he'll be back, I'm sure.
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
Hades
Shit Eater
Posts: 9795
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:02 am
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hades »

Lost to the Void wrote:
You can get perfectly good results from a low priced mixer if you literally just use it as a through board, but stuff like the EQ will be way below the quality you could get ITB.
I kind of disagree with that statement.
I had a soundcraft Spirit FX16 for years, and bought a Midas Venice a few years ago,
I almost never used the Soundcraft for more than a through board, and yet I was amazed at how massively better all my gear started to sound once I got my Midas.
Or maybe it's just cause the step up was so big I can't really compare this to what you're saying.

I do agree the EQ on cheap mixers sucks.
I don't think I ever used the EQ on my Soundcraft more than 4x in all those years, always preferring the ITB EQ's, while I find it hard not to reach for EQ on my Midas.
Lost to the Void wrote:
When buying low price, you are generally better getting used than new.
yep, absolutely !
Sin cambios no hay mariposa


User avatar
Hepta
I Love YOU!!!
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:56 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hepta »

Lost to the Void wrote:You could just buy a summing mixer if this is all you want. You will get better quality for your money then as the components are devoted to just that, with no money going on other parts you won`t be using.
Cool. I did not know about those. I'll have to do my research.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Lost to the Void »

Hades wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:
You can get perfectly good results from a low priced mixer if you literally just use it as a through board, but stuff like the EQ will be way below the quality you could get ITB.
I kind of disagree with that statement.
I had a soundcraft Spirit FX16 for years, and bought a Midas Venice a few years ago,
I almost never used the Soundcraft for more than a through board, and yet I was amazed at how massively better all my gear started to sound once I got my Midas.
Or maybe it's just cause the step up was so big I can't really compare this to what you're saying.

I do agree the EQ on cheap mixers sucks.
I don't think I ever used the EQ on my Soundcraft more than 4x in all those years, always preferring the ITB EQ's, while I find it hard not to reach for EQ on my Midas.
Lost to the Void wrote:


When buying low price, you are generally better getting used than new.
yep, absolutely !

Well obviously if you get a better mixer you will get better results, I`m not disputing that at all, but some of the basic architecture of lower end (but not bottom end) mixing boards is actually quite good, in some cases it can be the same as the higher (but not of course highest) priced boards from the same company. I`m only talking about basic throughput, input etc.

And my point was "perfectly good" results.
Not great results, not the best results, but perfectly good.

Good technique will always win out. I`ve gotten great results in peoples studios with cheap mixers and good technique (careful gain structuring) and of course many great releases have been made on "shitty" gear.

There is a tendency in techno to glorify and fetishise gear, I`m just saying don`t worry about it too much.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Lost to the Void »

Hepta wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:You could just buy a summing mixer if this is all you want. You will get better quality for your money then as the components are devoted to just that, with no money going on other parts you won`t be using.
Cool. I did not know about those. I'll have to do my research.
There are some great summing mixers out there, if this is all you are using it for, and you will get stunning quality electronic architecture for that purpose, whereas if you were to spend the same amount of money on a full mixer the quality will be markedly lower.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Hepta
I Love YOU!!!
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:56 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hepta »

If you were to recommend one or two? Which would you pick? Do they have aux sends as well? Those I've seen so far on thomann are a bit too pricey.

User avatar
Hepta
I Love YOU!!!
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:56 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hepta »

I kinda want to jam with my gear and just record the master output thats why I picked a normal mixer with faders and sends. But summing up each channel directly into my DAW would be a great feature too of course. Fuck this is hard to decide. :?

Also I would need an audio interface with multiple inputs for this to work right?

User avatar
Lost to the Void
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 13518
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Lost to the Void »

Generally you don`t get sends with a summing mixer, it is literally just there to sum a number of inputs down to 2 channels, but it will do so in a very very nice way.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
New Shit
Techno is dead. Long live Techno.

User avatar
Mattias
subsekt
subsekt
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:19 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Mattias »

Be careful to just record your master bus unless you have ideal listening. You gotta gain tons of experience to do it right as you know. Once recorded and you later find out there is something messing with the recording or makes it hard to master properly it's nasty! Killed many joyful moments for many.
Music Page: http://www.facebook.com/Mattias.Fridell.Music
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/fridell
Sample packs: http://mfsamples.bandcamp.com

Contention / 005

User avatar
Hepta
I Love YOU!!!
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:56 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hepta »

Lost to the Void wrote:Generally you don`t get sends with a summing mixer, it is literally just there to sum a number of inputs down to 2 channels, but it will do so in a very very nice way.
Ahh all right. Hmm, I'll stick with the VLZ4 anyway then. If I run this for a while maybe I'll appreciate a possible upgrade much more.
Mattias wrote:Be careful to just record your master bus unless you have ideal listening. You gotta gain tons of experience to do it right as you know. Once recorded and you later find out there is something messing with the recording or makes it hard to master properly it's nasty! Killed many joyful moments for many.
Roger that! Haha yeah, should save myself from any unnecessary retakes that will never capture "that same moment" again.

Cheers guys.

User avatar
Hepta
I Love YOU!!!
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:56 pm
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Hepta »

Wow. What a nice avatar status I have. Fuck sake.

Ploy
skaghead
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:00 am
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Ploy »

Here is a list of questions tk ask in regards to buying a console.

How many channels do I need?

Will I need more channels in the future because I will add more gear?

Do I need faders?

Do I need aux sends? How many?

Will I need more sends in the future?

Do I need want direct outs?

Do I need channel inserts?

Do I want or need preamps?

Do I need or want swept EQ?

If you answer no to most of l of these questions then one does not need a console. One might be better served buying a summing box.

Summing box? The Radial Workhorse is a nice solution. It's a 500 series box that provides flexible routing and space for 8 500 series modules. My friend has a configuration with 2 aux send modules and a couple EQ modules as well as a pair of API compressors. At the end of the day he has a 8 channel summing mixer with 2 aux send in a 3 space chassis. A compact yet quality solution for his small space. It's not cheap though and he built it up over a couple years. It is availble in different configurations last I checked, from a 4 or 6 slot up to 10 or 12 slot. The basic unit is reasonable enough price wise it's once you start adding the 500 series modules the it becomes expensive. Still 500 series modules retain their value very very well so if you need to sell one on you'll likely get back most of what you've spent on it. It also requires D-sub cables which are not cheap. I bought 4x 8 channel Mogami snakes... Total cost was over $1000 once tax was added.

And yeah useable results can be had with pretty much anything. I am of the option that if you are in this for the long haul spend a bit of money and get yourself some quality kit that you will have worked hard for. You will appreciate it, find it inspires you when you use it. Most of the time using cheap shit sucks.

Ploy
skaghead
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:00 am
Re: Mixer advice?

Post by Ploy »

Ploy wrote:Here is a list of questions tk ask in regards to buying a console.

How many channels do I need?

Will I need more channels in the future because I will add more gear?

Do I need faders?

Do I need aux sends? How many?

Will I need more sends in the future?

Do I need want direct outs?

Do I need channel inserts?

Do I want or need preamps?

Do I need or want swept EQ?

If you answer no to most of l of these questions then one does not need a console. One might be better served buying a summing box.

Summing box? The Radial Workhorse is a nice solution. It's a 500 series box that provides flexible routing and space for 8 500 series modules. My friend has a configuration with 2 aux send modules and a couple EQ modules as well as a pair of API compressors. At the end of the day he has a 8 channel summing mixer with 2 aux send in a 3 space chassis. A compact yet quality solution for his small space. It's not cheap though and he built it up over a couple years. It is availble in different configurations last I checked, from a 4 or 6 slot up to 10 or 12 slot. The basic unit is reasonable enough price wise it's once you start adding the 500 series modules the it becomes expensive. Still 500 series modules retain their value very very well so if you need to sell one on you'll likely get back most of what you've spent on it. It also requires D-sub cables which are not cheap. I bought 4x 8 channel Mogami snakes... Total cost was over $1000 once tax was added.

And yeah useable results can be had with pretty much anything. I am of the option that if you are in this for the long haul spend a bit of money and get yourself some quality kit that you will have worked hard for. You will appreciate it, find it inspires you when you use it. Most of the time using cheap shit sucks.
Correction to the above regarding the Radial Workhorse. It comes as an 8 channel config summing mixer only. Radial also offers 500 series lunch boxes in other sizes 4-10 spaces.

Here is the link for the WH if you would care to investigate further.
http://www.radialeng.com/workhorse.php


Post Reply