Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno scene

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Hades
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by Hades »

terly wrote:
at the same time I'm not sure if the same thing that happened in iceland can happen there ... iceland used IMF money to rebuild their economy after they nationalized their banking system.
did you see "the inside job" ?
if not, please do so, you will be rather shocked at how fucked we all were, and how clever they all did it.
The Iceland situation is briefly discussed in the documentary.
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

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terly wrote:
at the same time I'm not sure if the same thing that happened in iceland can happen there ... iceland used IMF money to rebuild their economy after they nationalized their banking system.

this one has been bugging my mind all afternoon while I was out with the kids and the mrs...

afaik, all the problems started when Iceland privatized their banks and the employees started showering themselves with huge bonuses for virtually nothing.
they created massive bubbles, only waiting to burst...

well, I just did a quick google and this is one of the things I just read :
4. Iceland nationalised the banks.

This much is true. Iceland then privatised them again in record time. Two out of the three collapsed major banks in Iceland are now owned by the creditors. (“But I thought Iceland shafted the creditors?” Hah! Yeah, funny that.) The third bank, Landsbanki, is still nationalised but that’s solely because of the ongoing court cases involving Icesave (more on that later).

Most of the creditors actually sold their stakes to foreign hedge and vulture funds and the like. Again, google translate it if you actually care about the facts.

So, not only did Iceland re-privatise the banking system, we sold it out of the country.
This is a page apparantly written by some Icelandic person.
I am not at all some economic expert, nor do I know if this source is reliable, but to be honest, after watching "the inside job", this explanation seems far more believable to me than the fact that all of a sudden, the Icelandic government had a huge brilliant non-selfish moment of enlightenment all of a sudden and regained common sense...
I've become too sarcastic/ironic/desillusioned over the years to still believe in that kind of stuff,
and the fact that I stumble upon a page written by an Icelandic person with just a quick google (using your sentence btw) only confirms what I suspect abouth the current Icelandic banks' situation...

http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what ... n-iceland/

no offence mate, just trying to keep up a healthy discussion... ;)
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by terly »

Hades wrote:to be honest, after watching "the inside job", this explanation seems far more believable to me than the fact that all of a sudden, the Icelandic government had a huge brilliant non-selfish moment of enlightenment all of a sudden and regained common sense...
I've become too sarcastic/ironic/desillusioned over the years to still believe in that kind of stuff,
and the fact that I stumble upon a page written by an Icelandic person with just a quick google (using your sentence btw) only confirms what I suspect abouth the current Icelandic banks' situation...

http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what ... n-iceland/

no offence mate, just trying to keep up a healthy discussion... ;)
No offence at all ... I was trying to suggest in my post that the situation in Iceland is more complicated than how it is presented in memes, given their cooperation with the IMF. Thanks for sharing that link.

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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by msl »

Hades wrote:I absolutely agree, and yet it's exactly because people don't discuss problems any more, that we've all become almost indifferent to the massive problems in our current society..

Wooah where to begin. Yeah the 90's did seem to last for ever :)

Yes the world is in a state alright. I'm big into history and geopolitics. History makes me depressed. There are reasons we have the wealth we have in Europe. Sadly psychopaths are attracted to positions of power and influence. As a Belgian just look at Leopold!

Yes its pretty bad in Greece, all my old friends have taken big salary cuts, 1/3 and more. Even people who were kinda well off before are struggling. Note Greek salaries where shit to begin with anyway. As for the old age pensioners, god help them their pensions where unliveable even before all this shit.

Greece never had any kind of kinda social welfare system anyway, as we have in Ireland the UK or Germany, etc. And now the little they had was taken away.

What kinda saves the people is 'most' people have a village they come from where usually the grandparents might have an old house and a plot of land maybe. So you can go live subsistence from the land in the worst case senario maybe. Things would be way way worse than they are if it were not for the high percentage of home ownership.

The thing is the Troika's 'medicine' has failed everyone can see it, I think Syriza did the right thing going for a referendum. Democracy in action. I'll remind you the last time a greek prime minster tried to have one they disposed him in a day!

We'll see how it goes. Personally I think its better if they do get out of the euro (they'll still be in the EU) it would be chaos for the first weeks but they could devalue their currency. It was folly to begin with joining such poor countries as Greece or Ireland or Portugal with powerhouses like Germany, they can never be equals economically.

to be continued...
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by Lag »

I'm sorry if I'm coming off ignorant right now (probably cause I don't know too much about the situation) but observing everything from a relative distance it seems to be a somewhat similar situation to what Serbia is like, except we are not in the Euro zone.

People here are not hard working. Also, we have a system which is abused by the government and a select group of people is getting jobs and money in a way which makes the capitalist approach (the approach we are going for) obsolete. I keep joking about the "Serbian dream" and that is to not work but still have a good income. So what we have is a country with no money, plummeting deeper and deeper in debt, and nobody is really doing anything to make it change. People who are worth anything are leaving the country en masse to find good jobs somewhere else, the government is raising the taxes every few months and, as a result, less and less people are able to pay their employees, or pay taxes. We are literally going to hit rock bottom in a few years and there's either gonna be a war, or we face reality that we are shit workers and our system is gonna stay corrupt unless there is an uprising - and we change something.

I remember hearing about "Greece is gonna fail financially" AGES ago, yet, even though it was obvious from miles ahead, nothing changed and no one did anything. People kept doing the same stuff they've been doing for decades (which basically got them where they are), and now that shit hit the fan - they are asking for someone else to bail them out.

Hitting rock bottom is not always a bad thing imho. There is always a chance it will resonate with a lot of people and make a shift in the collective consciousness. But there is also a chance it will just fuck up things more. Dunno. It just reminds me of my Ex's sister who kept shoplifting, doing drugs, fucking people over and when she would get in trouble and ask for help - the entire family would swarm in to help her. Then, after the situation has been sorted out, she would just go back to doing the same shit again. My personal approach towards this behavior might be a bit too strict, but I would rather just not help her in any crisis she herself has caused. That way she will either end up dead with a needle in her vein in some public toilet, or she would sort her act out and live a healthy life. I see this approach in the way Germany, and the rest of the EU are treating Greece.
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by Lag »

msl wrote: Yes its pretty bad in Greece, all my old friends have taken big salary cuts, 1/3 and more. Even people who were kinda well off before are struggling. Note Greek salaries where shit to begin with anyway. As for the old age pensioners, god help them their pensions where unliveable even before all this shit.
One more thing which reminds me of Serbia... Avg pay here is 350e, minimal wage is 170e. Pensions, which were shit to begin with, recently got cut by 20%. The IT sector, which is the only one making good money in the country right now, is getting more and more taxed. And mind you, it's not the big boys getting taxed - low and middle class get taken some 60% of everything they earn, plus all the IT equipment just got a 20% tax increase last year cause, well, why not. Not to mention that, since they allowed Paypal in Serbia (which was only recently) they are making you pay customs for EVERYTHING, and how! I bought a painting for 160e and paid 130e for the customs tax.

Yet, despite all that, when you go to the grocery store - the prices are literally the same as in Berlin. Clothing, footwear, electronics are all more expensive than in most of the EU. It's literally cheaper to go to Hungary or Austria and shop for clothing and footwear than to buy locally. Cheaper to get electronics as well if you know a guy at the border mind you. :)

Yet this situation is like it is because of what we are like as a people, and we have no right to be angry at anyone but ourselves for ending up in such a situation.
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by msl »

Lag wrote:People here are not hard working...
Well the Greeks are not lazy thats just a racist stereotype. They actually work the most hours of all the european countries!
42.2 per week, compared to just 35.6 in Germany, and 36.3 in the UK... (figures from 2011)

Though yes culturally there are many similarities, and religion. Yes the elites in Greece abused the system for ages.

Fact is everybody in every country avoids taxes if they can. The Germans are expert at it too.

Lag wrote: Yet this situation is like it is because of what we are like as a people, and we have no right to be angry at anyone but ourselves for ending up in such a situation.
Well correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you bombed back to the stone age just 15 years ago? How do you recover from that kinda thing? I remember reading the story about the Yugo factory workers... I would be angry at more than myself.

As I mentioned in an earlier post Greece was royally fucked over after WWII and then again with the US backed junta in the late 60's. These things irrevocably damaged the country, its economy and its integrity. It was an 'every man for himself' attitude after that.

One last thing Greece has rather large unexploited gas and mineral deposits, they want them in a permanent state of debt servitude so they can get at these for cheap imo.

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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by msl »

Also I'm old enough to remember Europe with borders, and how much everyone was looking forward to the EU, free travel and working in other countries. I did it myself as soon as I could. It promised a lot of things, but the way the EU has evolved its just a banking cartel. If cultural aspects are not at its centre and theres no solidarity whats the point, then its just a coal trading union as it started out. Maybe Greece can be the start of a revision of what the EU stands for and represents, well thats my hope anyway. Otherwise I'd be glad to see it go at this point.


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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

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msl wrote:
Lag wrote:People here are not hard working...
Well the Greeks are not lazy thats just a racist stereotype. They actually work the most hours of all the european countries!
42.2 per week, compared to just 35.6 in Germany, and 36.3 in the UK... (figures from 2011)
Those are just numbers man. There is a saying in Serbia which, translated literally, goes "they can't pay me as little, as little I can work". Being at work and working are two very different things. For example we have a lot of people employed in the public sector who, legally, can't be fired. Guess how high their productivity is. :)
msl wrote:
Lag wrote: Yet this situation is like it is because of what we are like as a people, and we have no right to be angry at anyone but ourselves for ending up in such a situation.
Well correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you bombed back to the stone age just 15 years ago? How do you recover from that kinda thing? I remember reading the story about the Yugo factory workers... I would be angry at more than myself.

As I mentioned in an earlier post Greece was royally fucked over after WWII and then again with the US backed junta in the late 60's. These things irrevocably damaged the country, its economy and its integrity. It was an 'every man for himself' attitude after that.

One last thing Greece has rather large unexploited gas and mineral deposits, they want them in a permanent state of debt servitude so they can get at these for cheap imo.

.
Wasn't Germany fucked up completely after WWI? And came back in 20 years to wage war on the entire world? And no, we weren't bombed to stone age. We had a couple of key structures destroyed, but we didn't have everything leveled like some countries/cities which came back strong. We were in a shitty position to begin with and, honestly, even though the reason for bombing was manufactured, after Milošević left we had a few good years of progress. But we were in a shitty position since the late 70 because we didn't work like we should have worked, just like we, right now, aren't working the way we should be working.
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by jordanneke »

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my summary

1 - Greece's political system was based on favoritism, and kick-backs, so a lot of money got spent when a new government got voted in (up to 2009)

2 - The pension and tax laws are ridiculously complex (pensions were 96% of final salary).

3 - tax avaoidance was a national sport

4 - The greek government had a 4 times higher deficit than was allowed by EU rules, which they hid until 2010.

5 - They needed bailing out as they ran out of cash, 3 times. Each bailout came with stipulations for Austerity.

6 - New government comes in on the promise that they'll stop austerity. EU says 'no, stick to the terms of the loans'.

7 - The greeks need cash from the ECB as everyone is taking euros, they also need to pay back the IMF and the eurozone loans, very soon.

8 - The government want to hold a referendum, which is basically says we won't stick to point 6. EU says, you can't do that, take our cash, and not want to reform and stay in Europe.

9 - Greece is fucked as the ECB says we are not giving you any more cash for point 7, because you want to do point 8.

10 - Greece is still fucked.

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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

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msl wrote:Also I'm old enough to remember Europe with borders, and how much everyone was looking forward to the EU, free travel and working in other countries. I did it myself as soon as I could. It promised a lot of things, but the way the EU has evolved its just a banking cartel. If cultural aspects are not at its centre and theres no solidarity whats the point, then its just a coal trading union as it started out. Maybe Greece can be the start of a revision of what the EU stands for and represents, well thats my hope anyway. Otherwise I'd be glad to see it go at this point.


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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by Hades »

Mattias wrote:
msl wrote:Also I'm old enough to remember Europe with borders, and how much everyone was looking forward to the EU, free travel and working in other countries. I did it myself as soon as I could. It promised a lot of things, but the way the EU has evolved its just a banking cartel. If cultural aspects are not at its centre and theres no solidarity whats the point, then its just a coal trading union as it started out. Maybe Greece can be the start of a revision of what the EU stands for and represents, well thats my hope anyway. Otherwise I'd be glad to see it go at this point.


.
Well said man.
absolutely.
thought the same when I read it yesterday.

like you pointed out msl, EU stands for nothing more than a money union nowadays.
I haven't heard anyone talk about culture in the last fucking decade or so...
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

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Lag wrote: Wasn't Germany fucked up completely after WWI? And came back in 20 years to wage war on the entire world? And no, we weren't bombed to stone age. We had a couple of key structures destroyed, but we didn't have everything leveled like some countries/cities which came back strong. We were in a shitty position to begin with and, honestly, even though the reason for bombing was manufactured, after Milošević left we had a few good years of progress. But we were in a shitty position since the late 70 because we didn't work like we should have worked, just like we, right now, aren't working the way we should be working.
I'll agree Germany has always had a strong economy.
Shit, I lived and worked there for a few years and my wife is German ffs,
Yes, I think the Germans probably work harder than a few other countries in Europe, they are also highly efficiënt, deadly efficiënt, as they showed in WWII...

but please don't forget the nazi's had superb ways to get money when they got into power.
and if Germany had really become so strong, the national socialism would have never become so popular in Germany.
Hitler was good at making the Germans believe he would make things better,
and they got treated so badly after WWI that they would have probably taken any decent myth that was told to them.
They desperately wanted to believe in a better future for their country.

It's not like Germany had enough cash to keep on fighting when they actually started WWII.
Like in any war, you conquer a country, then steal all their goods, make all their people work for you, and that way, you can start building an even greater army and keep on fighting.
This is also a big reason WWI ended : the Germans couldn't push forward anymore, and eventually the money just ran out.
One of Hitler's biggest sidekicks, Albert Speer I think it was, already predicted halfway 43 that Germany would lose the war cause he knew they would evnetually run out of money and supplies.

There are several reasons why Germany started a war, but the biggest reason, in the case of the first and the 2nd WW, was the extremely megalomanic nature of Hitler and Wilhelm II,
as was exactly the same with Napoleon btw.
Wilhelm II got banned to live in Holland (who was neutral in WWI) after WWI, and when Hitler started a war, he literally thought they would come pick him up any time to put him back on his throne... :lol: :lol:
But the difference between WWI and WWII was that WWI really got started because Wilhelm II had such a huge army and nothing to do, while Germany was fed up with being treated so badly by the rest of Europe after WWI.

To this day we are still finding back many paintings that got stolen by the nazi's.
And another wonderful little detail that I love : when Hitler first took power, he made a law that any new wed couple would get a copy of his "Mein Kampf" book.
haha, what an original way to make the best seller list Dolfy ! :lol:
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by msl »

Lag wrote:Those are just numbers man. There is a saying in Serbia which, translated literally, goes "they can't pay me as little, as little I can work". Being at work and working are two very different things. For example we have a lot of people employed in the public sector who, legally, can't be fired. Guess how high their productivity is. :)
Sure I know what you mean, but I'm pretty sure this is not just public sector statistics, cause they do go home early! But maybe you've heard it repeated so many times that they are lazy that you can't believe its not true...

http://pogiblog.atlatszo.hu/2015/06/27/ ... economics/
Lag wrote: Wasn't Germany fucked up completely after WWI? And came back in 20 years to wage war on the entire world? And no, we weren't bombed to stone age. We had a couple of key structures destroyed, but we didn't have everything leveled like some countries/cities which came back strong. We were in a shitty position to begin with and, honestly, even though the reason for bombing was manufactured, after Milošević left we had a few good years of progress. But we were in a shitty position since the late 70 because we didn't work like we should have worked, just like we, right now, aren't working the way we should be working.
Well I don't know enough about Serbia and how it is today... Yes Germany was completely fucked up and broke, and what saved them economically was they had 50% of their debts pretty completely written off by Greece and Spain and the other countries at the request of the US. They also benefitted from the Marshall Plan and cheap turkish labor.

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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

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msl wrote:
Yes the world is in a state alright. I'm big into history and geopolitics. History makes me depressed. There are reasons we have the wealth we have in Europe. Sadly psychopaths are attracted to positions of power and influence. As a Belgian just look at Leopold!

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if you like history, we can talk for hours :)
a nice little detail you might not know about Leopold II (there were 3 of them in total over the years) :
he was, just like HItler, Wilhelm II, Napoleon,... a pure megalomanic person.
He was frustrated by the small size of Belgium, and wanted more country,
so originally his plan was to conquer the southern part of Holland, the Catholic part.
He even asked and got support from most of the important European kings and emperors, untill France changed his mind, and the rest kind of started hesitating.
So he had to drop his plan, and that's how he eventually got into Congo and started chopping off hands. (well, he never even set foot there, but yeah).
A perfect exmplae of his megalomanic nature is that he was contsnatly building massive buildings (at least for those days), just like Wilhelm II.
Our palace of justice in Brussels was untill the 1950's or so one of the biggest buildings on earth.



msl wrote:.

What kinda saves the people is 'most' people have a village they come from where usually the grandparents might have an old house and a plot of land maybe. So you can go live subsistence from the land in the worst case senario maybe. Things would be way way worse than they are if it were not for the high percentage of home ownership.

.
indeed, but I've been told that even that is changing slowly.
In Crète for example, people used to have 2 or 3 small businesses, or a couple of olive tree fields, so it was common to give a business or piece of land to each of their children if they liked, but the next generation will never have that luxury. That's definitely over.
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by msl »

Hades wrote:He was frustrated by the small size of Belgium, and wanted more country...
Classic small dick syndrome!



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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by msl »

jordanneke wrote:10 - Greece is still fucked.
Basically yes, and to all the above.


The fact of the matter is the average citizen of Greece the working class did not consume beyond their means... as in Ireland they didn't, all these bail outs are just for refinancing too big to fail German and French banks. Deutsche Bank is so heavily leveraged (1 trillion+) with toxic derivative debt (junk debt), it would fail tomorrow without these cash injections, cause as you know of all the billions only <5% actually stayed in Greece for the benefit of its economy and people.

So its just a perverted socialising of private debt in my mind. Sold as 'bailing out the lazy greek people' when in actuality its not, and they manage to force their harsh neoliberal economic systems, massive privatisations and austerity on the country.


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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

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jordanneke wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my summary

1 - Greece's political system was based on favoritism, and kick-backs, so a lot of money got spent when a new government got voted in (up to 2009)

2 - The pension and tax laws are ridiculously complex (pensions were 96% of final salary).

3 - tax avaoidance was a national sport

4 - The greek government had a 4 times higher deficit than was allowed by EU rules, which they hid until 2010.

5 - They needed bailing out as they ran out of cash, 3 times. Each bailout came with stipulations for Austerity.

6 - New government comes in on the promise that they'll stop austerity. EU says 'no, stick to the terms of the loans'.

7 - The greeks need cash from the ECB as everyone is taking euros, they also need to pay back the IMF and the eurozone loans, very soon.

8 - The government want to hold a referendum, which is basically says we won't stick to point 6. EU says, you can't do that, take our cash, and not want to reform and stay in Europe.

9 - Greece is fucked as the ECB says we are not giving you any more cash for point 7, because you want to do point 8.

10 - Greece is still fucked.

Jordan, I agree with most of your points, but how correct is the information you get about this ?
I mean, all we hear is what the local news and newspapers tell us, and seriously, what EU needs us to believe is that the Greek are lazy and greedy, and that they deserve to get totally punished.
When there's a hidden agenda, like what msl suggested with the gas and minerals, you can be damn sure we're probably never gonna hear about it.

You know what the US did with the First Gulf War ? They put all the journalists in a tent camp 300km away from the front lines, and only fed them the news that they wanted the world to see. Only a very small selection of "good" journalists were allowed a little closer. We literally got to see nothing believable about that war (if you're old enough to remember it much).
This was 1991, and you rest assured that things haven't gotten any better nowadays when it comes to reliable news. 95% of all newspapers print the same kind of articles. It has become extremely hard to still find a critical source of journalism today.

Also, Belgians dodge their taxes as much as possible as well, and many of our laws are extremely complex as well...
I think the Greek politicians are to blame, absolutely, and only in a minor part the people, but, as usual, the people are paying for it all.

Also, wasn't it at least 2x (or only once) in the last 3 years or so that the USA would be "bankrupt".
They even had to close down all their state services for like a week or so, because the money ran out.
So they had to change their laws to borrow more money again.
Yet nobody finds that situation strange, nor do they even remember it much a week later.
I could be wrong about this, but I think there is no country in the whole world with more debt than the USA.
But of course, the USA is fucking huge, so no one is gonna refuse to borrow them money.
But the Greek, who cares about the Greek, right ?
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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by helloitsmeagain »

I'm a bit ignorant about this, so excuse my massive simplification...

If i lend my mate 100 dollars and he doesn't pay me back, i'm kinda suspect the next time he asks for 100 dollars. By time he's lent 300 dollars and not paid me anything back, i'm saying fuck you buddy, pay me back first. if i keep lending him money without any evidence he's gonna pay me, surely i'm a complete moron?
Because of ACiD, i now know that butter is way better than margarine. I saw through the bullshit. - Mitch Hedberg

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Re: Rant about Greece and politics in the so called techno s

Post by msl »

Pretty heavy and somber reading. This is the everyday reality...


http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-int ... iew#item-1
www.bernadettetrax.bandcamp.com
www.soundcloud.com/michaellovatt


“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” Dune


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