Phrase mixing question.

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
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willemb
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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by willemb »

My main interest in this thread is looking at the spacing of the writing, quest sure uses that return/enter key a lot.

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by Lost to the Void »

New technology maybe?
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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by SFBM »

Maybe he's ENTERing the VOID

*rimshot*

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by Lost to the Void »

No one enters me mate, I'm a power top, no lube, dry and dangerous.
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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by quest »

Looking back at the previous posts, I think it'd be pretty fair for me to argue that you also are not really reading quite a bit of what I'm saying.

I have been listening, and don't want to make you repeat yourself over and over.
What I'm saying here is that Atkins, May, Saunderson and all those folks weren't exactly particularly young when they did their thing.
They weren't solely responsible for starting things, there were people way deeper on the tech side who had a hand too, and people way over on the social side like label bosses, and even the first event goers who were needed to build the scene from literally a bunch of informal dance events in the suburbs.

But these pioneers did put the initial energy in, and the scene reacted and formed from it. There needs to be a spark to start a fire.
My argument is not that tech will change everything on its own, but that it's just a part of the recipe. And that some cool tech is coming.

Tech is not steadily equally relevant over the years, it waxes and wanes in cycles like everything else. It leaps forward from time to time while in between you just get version updates of the same thing.

I guess what I'm saying is that a leap forward is coming, we're right on the verge of it. It will have an impact and while it won't be directly responsible for what's coming next, it is quite likely that the movement would not gain enough momentum without it. It will generate a lot of hype and if the people involved with it care mainly about the underground and are irritated by edm then there's a better chance that people's attention will be turned back in the right direction.

It has nothing to do with techno. I don't understand how you ever thought I was making an argument for that.

I know that I am still the outsider in this forum but I really appreciate the discussion.

And yes I really, really like using the enter key. I am a big fan of whitespace.
Last edited by quest on Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by quest »

Anyway, maybe it's time to try and make a case in point.

The case is that we're both right:

https://thump.vice.com/en_ca/article/gr ... ting-place

"In my opinion, I think that Groundwerk is going to revolutionize the underground scene in Vancouver,"

I'm working together with this crew, they are a really great bunch of people, but away from the prying eyes of FB where everyone in the local scene sees what each other writes, it's true that they had trouble getting the draw they were hoping to get in early events.

So we discussed some of the tech I was working on, and were excited "this can help draw people in the VJ community" (which is surprisingly big here, must be the Hollywood North effect), because we're working on something that can literally bring or even merge the audio and video communities together, instead of just standing side by side (which is already pretty good).

We're excited by what each other is doing, and we're working together to get the best of both worlds, both in grassroots social movement and in fueling the fire with exciting new things.

So what can we conclude from this? There's no argument here. No one disagrees with anyone despite appearances. What it comes down to is a simple question of "which came first, chicken or egg". The answer is neither, right? They go hand in hand.

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

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I have been trying to compose a reply for over 2 hours, and i still have a blank page... Everything I write appears to be echoing what already has been said.

Your writing does not inspire and does not make for good reading (I would like to refer you back to Lag's post on page 3), or for good discussion. If you make a clear point and we can have a debate, with arguments for and against your point. If I try to dissect your rambling thoughts, because that's what your posts look like, I'd have to separately quote each of your lines of text and tell you what i disagree with. You even go back on yourself and contradict yourself.

I can tell you in general terms, that a lot of your references, illustrations and examples, are in my opinion not fit for purpose. You talk about moving forward, and going back to the roots. You talk about big change comparing the original Detroit innovation to local underground scene, disregarding the difference.

Nothing you talk about is new, movement and audio, visuals and audio, its all been done, and won't be picked up by social media and gather likes. Yes you can have your spark and excitement and even create a local scene, but there will be a size limit. There are plenty of academic or arty small music/multi media scenes which deal with innovation and new technology, which at most trickle influence into a bigger scene. You will never beat the big EDM parties in numbers, we are not on the verge of something big and new. I agree that things might get so shit in music that more people will look for something more genuine. Maybe people will get bored with the over commercialised stuff at some point, but it will still be a popularity contest.

Steve's comparison to the jazz scene is realistic (not jaded, and im often accused in debates of being an eternal optimist), and that doesn't even take into account how the world has changed in the last 20 years.

Watch this: (especially from 56:40 to the end)

youtu.be/REpSdgORU5A

This is KRS-One talking about Hiphop. He distinguishes differences between consciousness, culture, product, and people who are just into it. It is a good illustration of what has happened with techno too, what has happened with the world. It is pretty similar to the jazz story too. The commercial product side separates from the underground and original ideas, towards the end he talks about moving between the different levels, and gets some people upset about it as well. Just replace hiphop with techno and you will have similar dimensions.

I am not sure if its in this thread or another, but I do see that there will be a phoenix rising from the social media ashes, I don't see it as doom and gloom. But I don't necessarily see it as a revolution, but more as people getting used to what the new world looks like and adapting their behaviour on it. Kids can't all be boring and the same as each other. I know there are young people out there who are into wildly non mainstream things, but you just have to look harder as online they currently get drowned out by newsfeed systems. There are counter movements to this, people complaining about fb algorithms, trying to set up more fair social media platforms etc. I think its more likely that people will become better at finding what their into, than some revolutionary music scene popping up, or techno transforming into such a thing. Of course if there are massive economic or cultural changes, this will affect music, how it is consumed or listened to - and technology could drive these changes, although I just don't see it happening.

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by quest »

Well, you have ferreted out one definite truth. I'm anything but spectacular with words. Typing a lot of words doesn't make up for it.

Maybe it's a byproduct of being in acoustically isolated labs, alone, for so long. Although I think even before that I was bad with words, forming cohesive arguments, although what I'm trying to say might be somewhere in there. I definitely didn't intend to contradict myself, I do believe that going forward is going back, it's a cycle like the ouroboros.

Maybe I'm not cut out for arguing for what I believe in, and should continue to lay low and just do it, and see what happens.

I wanted to say thanks to everyone for caring enough to take the time to reply to me.

I guess the truth will reveal itself in the years to come. Something will either begin to happen or it won't.

One things for sure, I'll make more headway if I think I'm right by continuing with what I'm doing than with arguing for what I feel the implications are before anything is even finished. Getting close now though.

Gotta never give up the dream.

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by Planar »

quest wrote: One things for sure, I'll make more headway if I think I'm right by continuing with what I'm doing than with arguing for what I feel the implications are before anything is even finished.
Ignorance is bliss, after all. Good luck with your project.

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by Lost to the Void »

I don't Think anyone is trying to discourage you from making new tech, far from it.
New tech is always welcome if it is a tool for creativity.
It's just you have this weird crusader complex about it, trying to save something that doesn't need saving, and won't be saved by more technology, and music is fine, dance music doesn't need revitalising, the underground side of it is the same as always, creative and vital, it just seems smaller because the commercial side is REALLY commercial and edm is "the thing" right now and so really big.

It's almost like a conversation you'd have with someone on their first lsd trip where they think they can solve the problems of the world with some chewing gum wrapper they found on their foot that seems profound for some reason.

As for the whole VJ and music thing....

There's a band called Neurosis, they are a post-metal band, they've been around for ages and ages, starting in the U.S. Hardcore scene in the 80's they have always changed and developed and move forward, remaining utterly underground, devoted to their art, and incredibly influential. They are one of the founders of the sludge/doom sound. As artists they have never sold out, and they remain vital today.

Their shows were famous as they used visual art like no other band. Long before VJing was a thing they had visual artists making live visuals to their music, projected in front or behind them. In the early days they were using ancient tech, oil projectors, vhs, modified gobo projectors etc.
Eventually the artist they worked with moved on to new gear.
You could easily say that Tool actually ripped off their visual live performance for their own live shows.

Anyway, a few years ago they stopped the visuals. Their shows were just played with minimal lighting, or none if possible.
People thought they had split with their artist or just couldn't be bothered with the effort, no one knew.
The band eventually announced why they did what they did, and after hearing gear reasons I really agree with what they said.

Essentially they said that for years they were doing it, and it was something special, adding this visual synergy to gigs that few were offering. As technology advanced it got to the point where the image had taken over everything, and people expected it.
Everyone was living their lives through screens, computer screens, phone screens, TV screens, adverts everywhere. Moving images on lit screens were a norm, a mind passifier.
So to break from that Neurosis decided to be done with it, to take that away from people, to get back to just the raw sound and no distractions.

And I'm kind of in agreement with that. I'm sick of ridiculous light shows, overdone VJ projections, lasers. I like the idea of going minimal again, just a stack of speakers, no flashy lights for the children, just themselves and the music.

Get back to the music. Turn all the phones off, give your eyes a rest and use your mind and your ears and your feet and just get down and lose yourself to the music.

I like that idea.
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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by quest »

You're right. People have been just shoving audio and video together in a subordinating way since windows 98 screensaver and winamp plugin days.

An fft isn't going to get you very far.

I was, if anyone was the slightest bit positive about it, going to explain how we were doing this from the ground up, unifying the domains from elementary waveforms and pixels/framebuffers.

If you have ever studied synesthesia, you might have been curious if there is something more to it. There is. There are ways to make it so that you can no longer differentiate what you are seeing from what you are hearing. If you are feeling tactile vibration from the same system, that sense also gets lost in the mix, and you may approach a feeling of total synesthesia.

Ever since I had a near death experience in 99 and experienced total synthesia, I was gripped by a possibility that could not exist until computational power was sufficient to facilitate it.

The last frontier was realtime video rendering optimisations, made possible by shifting work over to the GPU.

I don't think anyone is totally clear on the level of integration I'm talking about here, or what it feels like to experience it. It's not a distraction, an 'entertaining' thing, it is immersive in a way I can't even find the words to express.

I'm going for something that is unified to the point that the words you use to describe the different parts separately can't apply anymore. It's not music and art anymore, because it's a cohesive system that extends from Hertz up to kilohertz, then skips over a lot and pops up again in the terrahertz band.

I think what you've uncovered is that its utterly unwise to come out talking about something like that when it's not finished because you're not going to be able to describe it well when people can't relate it to something they've experienced before.

But I needed to know that was true. Hence the effort on one forum or another. It gets tiring working on it and not being able to talk to about it with anyone. Even my professors didn't really understand. That's fine.

It feels better to talk about it with people.guaranteed not to be yes-men like friends saying "oh that's so cool what you are doing" because I don't think its so cool, I'm not on any crusader mission, its just the next logical step to make in the 21st century.

If it sounds like I'm on a crusader mission then it's because I felt computers were getting faster and faster and we stopped realizing what we could do with them we couldn't do before. Video games are fine but they are a distraction from reality in a way different from music and art which engages with reality.

Another reason I'm talking so freely about it is because I hope to find people with similar interests to work together with. Who knows where I would find them. I couldn't care less if something was credited as my idea or someone else's because I blew the ego away with meditation quite a long time ago. Study our languages carefully and you'll find that directness is always mixed up with ego and it's impossible to be direct without sounding like you have a big ego. I hate how baked into the English language individualism is.

Other languages like Japanese don't have that and it makes me prefer them to English but hey, its the global language we got stuck with so what are you going to do.

Debate is funny. I don't believe in debating anymore. I don't have a concrete opinion about anything for longer than an instant. People think that having static opinions and arguing for them makes them stand for something but they shouldn't have to fear that if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to reevaluate ideas and arrive at similar conclusions each time if they were right.

I believe it's safe to consider yourself opinion less and in a quantum state of potential evaluation of anything any given instant.

This means that rather than debate, you can simply choose roles and pretend to "take a side" that "opposes" someone else's "perspective" for the sake of facilitating discussion.

Whatever it takes to get the discussion going.

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Re: Phrase mixing question.

Post by quest »

ah man just really came across poorly in that last now uneditable post. I still want to explain in more detail what I'm really trying to get at, but I really should stop hijacking another thread and derailing it.

will take some time off to concentrate on the projects and come back with proper threads with overviews, i guess, in the fall.

one more time, really really appreciate every bit of feedback. without some kind of impartial feedback i'm kind of doing it in a vacuum.


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