Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on master

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Lost to the Void
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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Lost to the Void »

It also just might be a bunch of new kids with really poor technique making all this crap.
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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by qb748t394 »

frankly... I hope Penumbra takes the hint and does us all a favor and kills himself.

seriously... the nerve to come to a techno website for help... and furthermore, to ask for help before he/she has properly risen through to the ranks of an established techno-forefather!!!!


oh wait, I know what the deal is. Of course penumbra probably expects to be coddled with "kids gloves," and unbeknownst to him/her, all the things you've both said were quite optimistic and in no way jaded, and with the tone of a senior citizen that walked both ways to school uphill.

seriously though... the REAL question penumbra should've asked was:

"Why on earth two guys that are 'too cool for school' were walking to school in the first place?"

those darn whippersnappers

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Contort »

qb748t394 wrote:
oh wait, I know what the deal is.
You ran out of 'meds'?

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by penumbra »

Contort wrote:
qb748t394 wrote:
oh wait, I know what the deal is.
You ran out of 'meds'?

appears to be... :lol:



@Voidloss:

I'm confused. What IS "side chain/input EQ" then?... Are you saying use S/C-EQ AND Input EQ?.. what is input-eq?... you mean just eq'ing the clap before it goes to comp?.. to exaggerate the "problem frequencies"?

Here is something else that is weird too me.

Every time I've placed a Clap on a kick, this is the result that i've learned to accept as a rule... a rule, because it happens to me every time... and I mean every time.

When I have a kick and clap hitting at the same time, the moment I hi-pass the clap?.. the volume INCREASES... the exact opposite of what I always expect to happen... and it NEVER fails for me... Even better... next, I will try to cut/notch-out areas in the low-mids on BOTH the kick AND clap... and the volume will INCREASE again!!??

I'm telling you... it happens this way for me, every time.

Yesterday, for fucking shits and giggle, I Lo-passed the kick with EQ-8 (not the x4 Lo-pass.. the regular one... is that a 6-db/oct or 12?).. anyways... I lo-passed the kick to like 200hz... THEN Hi-passed the clap to like 1.5Khz.

Guess what fuckin happened... think "Twilight Zone" AGAIN... I watched the peak-volume of the kick right?.. it was hittin' -18.5 db on Master.. THEN, when the clap hit, expecting that there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that the Master would increase above -18.5db... cuz how could it, neither of the sounds are even have the same freq. present... NEVER THE LES,S, when the clap hit, boom... Master Peak-vol. still increased... to -17.5?? and the clap's level is lower than the Kicks.. as in the my fader for the clap (and therefore it's peak-volume) is set like 6db lower than the kick's.

should I just seriously take qb's advice and give head to a .44 magnum?
Last edited by penumbra on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
because a track with a kick on every quarter is completely different than verb bass... the former is creative... latter is not.

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Planar »

So much drama!

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

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penumbra wrote:What IS "side chain/input EQ" then?... Are you saying use S/C-EQ AND Input EQ?.. what is input-eq?... you mean just eq'ing the clap before it goes to comp?.. to exaggerate the "problem frequencies"?
You're nearly there. He means altering the sound that comes into the compressor so it triggers the compression differently. For example, cutting all the lows from a kick to make only the highs trigger compression. It's easier to try it out. If you open Ableton and put a compressor on a channel, expand the compressor out (like you're using the sidechain functionality) and look at the EQ button. Now play a kick through it and enable the EQ button. Nothing sounds different, but now press the little headphone button in the middle. You hear what the compressor is using to drive compression, you can alter this with the EQ controls. Notice how it triggers gain reduction differently as you shape the compressor input. Now press the headphone button again to stop monitoring it's input.

Does that make sense?

Good info in this topic, btw, snares are a cunt to get right so it's been useful to me with my poor technique :lol:

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by penumbra »

okay yeah...thats exactly what I thought it was. Adjusting the EQ on the Glue in that expanded Glue-instance.
Kinda like de-essing, but more of a "de-transienting":)

Ya' know, i did try Transient Designer, but by the time it did enough to make a difference, the clap was dead.

On a side-note... with Transient Designer, I notice that (similar to compression sometimes), that the very first time a sound gets processed by the device (as in, when hitting "Play") the first hit is always much louder... but, after the initial hit, transient designer THEN provides a consistent output from there-on-in. Does anyone else notice this?.. and does anyone else find that an annoyance?.

I suppose it would eat more cpu and cause more latency if that was fixed in the software... although, perhaps the real hardware is the same way.

It's not hard to work around it, but, just figured I'd "throw it out there" since it came to mind.

thanx planar
because a track with a kick on every quarter is completely different than verb bass... the former is creative... latter is not.

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Lost to the Void »

penumbra wrote:okay yeah...thats exactly what I thought it was. Adjusting the EQ on the Glue in that expanded Glue-instance.
Kinda like de-essing, but more of a "de-transienting":)

Ya' know, i did try Transient Designer, but by the time it did enough to make a difference, the clap was dead.

On a side-note... with Transient Designer, I notice that (similar to compression sometimes), that the very first time a sound gets processed by the device (as in, when hitting "Play") the first hit is always much louder... but, after the initial hit, transient designer THEN provides a consistent output from there-on-in. Does anyone else notice this?.. and does anyone else find that an annoyance?.

I suppose it would eat more cpu and cause more latency if that was fixed in the software... although, perhaps the real hardware is the same way.

It's not hard to work around it, but, just figured I'd "throw it out there" since it came to mind.

thanx planar
Some transient designers are quicker. I believe some have look ahead.
You're talking about the SPL TD I think.
It isn't lightening fast, so yeah, sometimes the initial transient pokes through.
In cases like these I slap a limiter with look ahead after to cach the erroneous peak.
Generally you only get these problems when you are pushing too far, and if you are it is an indication of what I call shoehorning, so again, go look at your original sound, not everything can be fixed, sometimes the fix is to pick a different sound/the right sound.
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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Mattias »

Is the clap from a pretty fresh sample pack Penumbra?
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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

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Mattias wrote:Is the clap from a pretty fresh sample pack Penumbra?

not really... I mean, its no Vengeance clap... just a regular clap I suppose... nothing insane.

Here's the conclusion I am coming to... and feel free to tell me if I'm probably right...

based on you (Mattias) and Voidloss's little exchange about the "kids these days and 2014's Clap-conundrum."

It appears that I, as an aspiring producer, am trying to put together 2 sounds that, more or less, ARE NOT complimenting each other as much as they SHOULD be... in other words, I need to re-examine AND further develop my "sound choice" abilities?..

and therefore, this is really quite an ELEMENTARY problem... hence, the asinine nature of this thread to begin with...

right? :)

I fully accept the constructive criticism, and totally appreciate it :D
because a track with a kick on every quarter is completely different than verb bass... the former is creative... latter is not.

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Mattias »

Sure, that's possible.
Maybe you're over thinking it though, share a sound-clip of it? Easier to say something more concrete that way.
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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Lost to the Void »

penumbra wrote:
Mattias wrote:Is the clap from a pretty fresh sample pack Penumbra?

not really... I mean, its no Vengeance clap... just a regular clap I suppose... nothing insane.

Here's the conclusion I am coming to... and feel free to tell me if I'm probably right...

based on you (Mattias) and Voidloss's little exchange about the "kids these days and 2014's Clap-conundrum."

It appears that I, as an aspiring producer, am trying to put together 2 sounds that, more or less, ARE NOT complimenting each other as much as they SHOULD be... in other words, I need to re-examine AND further develop my "sound choice" abilities?..

and therefore, this is really quite an ELEMENTARY problem... hence, the asinine nature of this thread to begin with...

right? :)

I fully accept the constructive criticism, and totally appreciate it :D
Our discussion was more related to mastering work, don't take it personally, it wasn't aimed at you.
But yes, if your problem is extreme enough where it is causing such a shift in levels, and even with various options isn't solved -simply- with production fx, then yeah, it's probably best to reassess your sound choice.

It's very easy to get attached to sound choices, I do it myself a lot. You can fight and fight with a sound you have sold yourself on, and it can freeze the progress of your work. Sometimes you just have to ditch it.

It's hard to say exactly what your problem is without hearing it, but claps shouldn't be a problem, it's usually very easy to work them in to a mix.

And ignore most of my cynicism, I've been working in audio for years, it's easy to forget how complex a "simple" problem can appear to be when you lack the experience (of years of making all kinds of mistakes and fuck how) to have a solution on hand immediately.

Quite often a lot of the "how do I" questions on here have quite simple solutions.
Now there are complex solutions involving a lot of trickery that will deal with most problems, however there comes a point when adjusting or making corrections to a mix problem can end up causing further problems and end up making destructive changes that suck out alll the original tone or vibe.

I'm a strong advocate for a reductionist, natural, empathetic production philosophy, a kind of production realm version of Occam's razor.

If the sound problem can't be solved simply and efficiently, if you are having trouble fitting it in to the mix, then it probably just shouldn't be there.

I say this a lot, but I can't stress it enough, sound choice is the most important fx tool you have, followed by EQ.
When you choose sounds not only how they feel aesthetically but how they place within the mix, how they relate to the mix, how much room they take up, how much room is left, then you find your mixes come together much much more quickly, and you have less, or less severe, EQ work to do.

I hope some of that is useful.
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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by penumbra »

huge help everyone... :D

dont mind the cynicism... i hav little faith in human nature as well...
plus, I've read quite a bit on the forum before I even created an account; so, I've familiarized myself with some of the different personalities around here... so "it's all good."

"it ain't no thayng!"

as far as providing a sound example, this specific issue was just on my mind, since it seems to come up here and there... such as the other day... I just chose a different sound, and was good after that... with minimal need for eq, etc.

peace-out 8-)


P.S. anyone familiar with a book called: Mix With Your Mind?.. or something along those lines. Heard from some that it is quite good... while others thought it provocative or kinda "out there".
Thinkin about buying it.
because a track with a kick on every quarter is completely different than verb bass... the former is creative... latter is not.

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by Hepta »

Mattias wrote:Sure, that's possible.
Maybe you're over thinking it though, share a sound-clip of it? Easier to say something more concrete that way.
Yeah sharing a clip would be great. It will be easer to understand and learn from this discussion if we actually had the example.

But I'm glad you got it sorted penumbra!

Great info here overall though.

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Re: Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on ma

Post by penumbra »

Hepta wrote:
Mattias wrote:Sure, that's possible.
Maybe you're over thinking it though, share a sound-clip of it? Easier to say something more concrete that way.
Yeah sharing a clip would be great. It will be easer to understand and learn from this discussion if we actually had the example.

But I'm glad you got it sorted penumbra!

Great info here overall though.

glad my issues could help others...

dude... I gotta say...

I LOVE this website!!:D
because a track with a kick on every quarter is completely different than verb bass... the former is creative... latter is not.


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