Getting the "2 & 4" clap to NOT cause vol increase on master

[penumbra]

I know "we" don't make music with our eyes, but our ears... yes... I get that (I think )...

anyways... Obviously, by the time the mastering process is finished, the introduction of the clap in a track does not raise the levels.


If this isn't compensated for (partly or completely) in the mixing stage, then how is it remedied in the mastering stage?..

I ask this because sometimes I run into a situation where, seemingly no matter what I do, I can't get the clap to hit WITHOUT loosing some, or a lot of headroom.

I realize there are a number of things I can do to prevent this... EQ'ing Kick and Clap to compliment one another... AND/OR, adjusting the claps position on the timeline (in ms./ticks) in relation to the kick... AND/OR, inverting the phase of the clap, etc... or choose new sample (something I'd like to avoid sometimes if I like the sound of clap/kick).

but I don't know, maybe a "small" jump in levels is okay, and can be fixed in Mastering... but how much would be "acceptable"?

but still, sometimes it isn't enough... and something that seems counter-intuitive, is that there are times when CUTTING frequencies on either the kick / clap actually creates a larger jump in overall track volume... (I expect this is also due to phase interaction between both sounds).

What can I do?.. or should I even do anything?

[Hepta]

Everything is relative here. Some tracks rely on a heavy snare/clap, thus moving and changing the dynamics much more. But some don't where maybe the snare/clap will just sit behind the mix. I think you should post something that your working on in this thread here: http://subsekt.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4698

It will be much easier to understand what the problem is that your trying to explain. Remember that everything "that can be fixed" in mastering should be fixed in the mixing stage.

But I'm far way from an expert here, so feel free to lynch me if i'm wrong subsekters.

[Mono-xID]

compression with fast attack is is the way to solve this problem.

[penumbra]

yeah, ya' know... after posting that message, at some point I threw the glue on the drjm bus... shortest attack, auto-rel. and problem solved.

but uhh... good lookin' out mates!

I appreciate it...

[Lost to the Void]

I really don't understand the entire premise.

Every sound you add to the mix raises the final level.

This is not a problem unless of course you are mixing with no headroom, and in which case, go sort out your gain staging.

Otherwise why worry about it?

The only problem might be phase issues with the low end of the kick. So high pass away the lows on your clap. If the attack is too hard, pull it back a little, or use a transient designer to soften the transients, a compressor can also be used to craftily cut down the transients but keep the rest of the clap untouched.

[Mattias]

I think he means that when he adds a clap he can see it raise the peak level when the hit triggers and it eats headroom / causing too much GR or something?

Best ways to handle übertransient claps is of course to compress them, softclip or hardclip them at mixing stage.

Overly transient and loud claps or any type of fast snappy percussion can be hell in mastering.

[Lost to the Void]

hell? Come on, a minor inconvenience at best, there are a lot of tools to deal with the problem.

[Wiu]

Very slightly shifting a clap or snare forward or backwards can help sometimes as well.

[nocernoc]

solution 1 :

1) clap and kick to separate channels
2) compress one of clap or kick with side chain from other channel
3) set threshold such that reduction occurs such that overall gain is equal to gain when only kick is hit / heard

solution 2 :

1) automate filter with lfo on kick when both kick and clap hit simultaneously such that gain is equal to gain when only kick is hit

solution 3 :

1) same as solution (2) but use volume control instead of filter cutoff
2) note this is effectively the same as (1) above

all i can come up with for now sorry...

[penumbra]

@ Mattias... great advice!

@nocernoc: why would I s/c compress the clap or kick?... if I want to hear them?.. I'm confused...

@wiu: I mentioned that in the orig. post.

either way... Mattias and Mono nailed it

[Mattias]

hell? Come on, a minor inconvenience at best, there are a lot of tools to deal with the problem.

Overly loud transient and loud claps or any type of fast snappy percussion can be hell in mastering.

Yeah, for decent mixes that can handle it, far from all. Always easier to leave super snappy crazy peaking stuff relatively unharmed if the volume if ok.

I assume you didn't get much new wave "deep house" to master this year did you? Every other track have this super loud clap or bongo that, even after some nifty compression, dynamic EQ or clipping magic causes too much limiter GR for my taste. I soon have to make a template text email explaining how to fix claps for their re-mix to send back.

[Lost to the Void]

Deep house? Electronic music is easy to deal with, the transients are rarely that hard., especially if it is software made. Badly recorded heavy metal drums in a track are the worst, some of the drummers just hit as hard as they can at all times. If I have ever really struggled with transients it is with heavy metal.

Honestly I never get any trouble with hard transients, there are so many ways to deal with it. If I get real problems I have a lovely outboard comp that is like a magic wand on transients. If you are all ITB then yeah, I can see a few cases where there aren't the tools to deal with it, as there aren't many soft comps that can be driven in such a way as to smooth down the transients without sucking the life out of the mix.
None of the software varimu stuff works realistically, although it seems bootsy comps work in the most realistic way when it comes to input drive behaviour.

If it's really shocking bad, return to sender.

[Lost to the Void]

Anyway, getting back to the solution to the op problem.
Compression. Possibly with side chain EQ cutting out the low frequencies from the detector response.
You'd want to kill the transients, so, fast attack, but then you don't want all the life sucked out, so fast release too. Once that is all set, tune the gain reduction and then ride the side chain EQ until the comp reacts to the transient area.
You will need a very fast compressor.

[penumbra]

Expecting the possibility for some "ho-hums" about this thought, but...

what is the harm in .5 db-GR thru a limiter?.. or at least high-ratio compression?


besides that... the stuff about eq'ing the s/c?..
I need to understand more completely how eq'ing the s/c signal affects the compression... I'll have to mess with it... I just know how it works on say... the Master Bus, where I 've wanted to avoid the meat of the kick. I haven't thought about how exactly it affects what is going on in those initial brief milliseconds.

great advice... I knew you'd come around!

[Mattias]

If it's really shocking bad, return to sender.

That's what I said, I asked for permission to show an example:

dasclap.zip

(132.09 KiB) Downloaded 53 times

And the wish is for it to be as loud as this http://www.beatport.com/track/slip-away ... ix/5783016



This is what I call overly loud clap that is hellish to work with. Nothing good will come out of lots of processing to tame the clap its too many compromises to be made; get back and explain the situation and get a better volume on the clap.

[Lost to the Void]

You'll find a lot of problems go away if you just eq your clap properly.
Cut the lows with a hard curve, all that energy that causes peaks is mostly sitting down in the low mids and lower.

You don't need to EQ the side chain signal, you need to use side chain/input EQ to adjust the way the comp is responding to incoming audio.
If you have EQ'd the lows out of your clap and it is still causing huge peaks (what size of peaks are we talking about here? Is it a consistent problem? If it is then I think the problem is elseware) then those peaks will be high frequency transients.

You only want these to be triggering the compressor so you adjust the comp eq until the gain reduction is only triggered by these high freq transients.
You have to be careful and accurate because as soon as you start killing transients you remove all the life from a mix.

Really, I never encounter problems so bad I need to deal with this kind of thing in my own music. I would really be adjusting the clap itself long before imhave to start fucking with comoression etc, and if the problem is still some massive peak spikes. Dump the sound and find another.

Most production problems can be sorted by choosing the right sound in the first place.

[Mattias]

I tell you, its a new world problem 2014 to get claps right in electronic music.
My guess is there are many of the sample pack producers that smack up transient designers to the max and people buy that and use as they are.

[Mattias]

Expecting the possibility for some "ho-hums" about this thought, but...

what is the harm in .5 db-GR thru a limiter?.. or at least high-ratio compression?


besides that... the stuff about eq'ing the s/c?..
I need to understand more completely how eq'ing the s/c signal affects the compression... I'll have to mess with it... I just know how it works on say... the Master Bus, where I 've wanted to avoid the meat of the kick. I haven't thought about how exactly it affects what is going on in those initial brief milliseconds.

great advice... I knew you'd come around!

In most cases, a compressor, dipping the nasty frequencies out of the sound and a little re-balance in volume solves 9/10 clap problems (and others).

[Lost to the Void]

I tell you, its a new world problem 2014 to get claps right in electronic music.
My guess is there are many of the sample pack producers that smack up transient designers to the max and people buy that and use as they are.

You know, it's possible, I've heard a few vengeance sounds that are stupid peaky.

[Mattias]

Yeah I think it's something in that direction. This year is the year of the peaky clap. Never even been reflecting over this until this year