Oscilloscope

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
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seanocean
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Oscilloscope

Post by seanocean »

i'm going to try and do some heavy diving into FM synthesis in the coming months and i'm of the assumption that maybe a good oscilloscope plug will help me see what the hell i'm doing with these sine waves.

done some poking around and i think i'm going to grab this one
http://bram.smartelectronix.com/plugins.php?id=4

i suppose my question for the topic would be.. does anyone have any experience using oscilloscopes? was it helpful at all? or am i going to be just wasting my time?

idk it might be fun to play with at least. i feel like if i get to liking what it does for me i'll just plunk down a 100 bucks and grab one a lab might be tossing out.
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helloitsmeagain
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by helloitsmeagain »

i have a hardware oscilloscope. it's hugely helpful for fine tuning cv. it's also great to help understand what's happening on the micro level and helped me understand the behavior of my modules. i'm not sure it would bring you massive amounts benefit with ITB work. but they sure are pretty to look at.
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innovine
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by innovine »

Not sure it helps so much with audio analysis... I find I can hear overtones from distortion long before those soundcard plugin type scopes can show it. Professional scopes are maybe a different matter, but you'll find that scopes are most useful for analysis of periodic signals, and audio rarely is that. I'm not sure about synths, but watching a guitar pluck on a scope tells you sweet fuck all about how it sounds. You'd probably get a lot more detailed info from a realtime FFT plot, you know, the kind of thing some of the fancy EQ plugins use to visualize things in frequency space.

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krypt
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by krypt »

hello,
if you are going to focus on fm sytehsis, then focus on fm synthesis not on some 'oh im gonna to focus on fm synthesis' gadget.
my production is completely based on fm. it takes a lot of time to envision, design and process sounds. i do not use oscilloscope, although i recommend spectrum analyzer.
it took me from 1 to 3 days to create sample based track. fm based track its at least one week (when i am not working) up to whole month. if you want to succeed then you need masterclass in patience, not an oscilloscope.

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Post by innovine »

Can you recommend any tracks which contain a huge amount of FM synthesis? I'm wondering if my ears give a shit.

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krypt
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by krypt »

no they wont. but its not about earshit, its about approach. if a guy says he wants "do some heavy diving into FM synthesis" then i say focus on synthesis, time matters, experience matters, ideas matter, oscilloscope doesn't matter. but hey, i cannot recommend oscilloscope so i will back down on this one. just stay focused on synthesis it will absorb you and results aren't quick n' easy

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by Planar »

If you're using FM8 it comes with a spectrum analyser that shows how the harmonics change. It shows them as lines, so it's not quite your vanilla spectrum analyser. Other than that there is a book on FM if you search on Google for Chong(?). I'm working through it slowly as I'm determined to crack FM properly.
innovine wrote:Can you recommend any tracks which contain a huge amount of FM synthesis? I'm wondering if my ears give a shit.
Some of the Rrose stuff has very FM sounds. Even though he's (she's?) using Aalto which has a "complex" oscillator, it's still very similar to FM.

FM is class anyway. Just dig into Operator for an hour and you'll come up with sounds that you can't get with subtractive synthesis easily.

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by serial »

Planar wrote: hes' (she's?)
both
Image

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by Planar »

Hence why I said it ;)

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by ParetoPark »

I use U-He Bazille for FM. it has an oscilloscope. And the modular look of it makes the routing easy to see, some people might disagree but I like using the wires for FM.

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seanocean
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by seanocean »

krypt.. i'd be really interested to see your opinions on FM synthesis. do you know if there's a dedicated thread on here? i checked and saw cross mod (http://subsekt.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t= ... mod#p28276) but i'd really like to populate a thread about processes and ideas relating to FM synthesis. do you just start with one operator and add to it? i have a dx7iiD and it consistently makes the most weird and out of this world sounds. but it also balances that out with the most cheesiest of presets. so i'm really thinking it can destroy but it's hard to know where to start. i've read the articles from keyboard back in the day, watched the videos from the 80s.. but for some reason i need some extra help. maybe because one little thing can really upset the balance of the machine.

on the oscilloscope idea. the only reason i thought i'd get behind it was because i am a very visual person and that the oscilloscope might help me have an association to the sounds. like, in the past, i have been using an editor for the alpha juno i have, and now i don't even use the editor at all. i just go through the signal path happily dialing up the parameters. i plan to break into using an editor for the DX, but having a view on the end result would sort of complete the image for me.
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by krypt »

i am [still] learning FM on my own. its never ending process but the better you get, the easier it is to create sounds which you have before only imagined. so basically i love FM for that i can make up a sound in my mind and then create it via synthesizer (i use only software, no analogs here).
at the beginning I didnt know what I was doing but over the time you get better and better and then its easier to predict what will come out of stipulating with oscillators.
I can recommend you:
1. videos on youtube (keywords massive fm synthesis, massive evolving pads etc - i use massive if you work on operator try operator fm synthesis)
2. ebook: how to make a noise by Simon Cann - i can send it to you via email (mostly z3ta synthesizer)
3. John Chowning "The Synthesis of Complex Audio Spectra by Means of Frequency Modulation" its a short text, just for introduction by a guy who invented this technique

it is basic background knowledge to start with. the rest is your time, patience and experimenting. so after acknowledging this just practice on your own! go all the ways you want and try what works and what doesnt.

I usually begin with 1 oscillator (operator, carrier). First stage is to design the framework of a sound via ADSR envelope: there you decide whether its short bleep or long pad or whatever, how does it act over time. Then add more layers with voicing and other oscillators (because the true FM is combining oscillators). Then you have filters, more oscillators and so on.

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by Hades »

krypt wrote:i am [still] learning FM on my own. its never ending process but the better you get, the easier it is to create sounds which you have before only imagined. so basically i love FM for that i can make up a sound in my mind and then create it via synthesizer (i use only software, no analogs here).
at the beginning I didnt know what I was doing but over the time you get better and better and then its easier to predict what will come out of stipulating with oscillators.
I can recommend you:
1. videos on youtube (keywords massive fm synthesis, massive evolving pads etc - i use massive if you work on operator try operator fm synthesis)
2. ebook: how to make a noise by Simon Cann - i can send it to you via email (mostly z3ta synthesizer)
3. John Chowning "The Synthesis of Complex Audio Spectra by Means of Frequency Modulation" its a short text, just for introduction by a guy who invented this technique

it is basic background knowledge to start with. the rest is your time, patience and experimenting. so after acknowledging this just practice on your own! go all the ways you want and try what works and what doesnt.

I usually begin with 1 oscillator (operator, carrier). First stage is to design the framework of a sound via ADSR envelope: there you decide whether its short bleep or long pad or whatever, how does it act over time. Then add more layers with voicing and other oscillators (because the true FM is combining oscillators). Then you have filters, more oscillators and so on.
and how can you really combine a lot of oscillators with a synth like massive ?
I'm sorry, I haven't used Massive in ages, and though I love it's modulation options, it's still a rompler/wavetable synth.
It can (to my knowledge) do only very very basic FM synthesis.
there are a lot of synths that can do very basic FM synthesis, but that's not going to bring you very far in the world of FM sounds.

Your advice about setting up the envelope is a good tip though.
But that goes for pretty much any sound you want to create from scratch, no matter which type of synthesis you use.
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by krypt »

for me it's never been about tool. it's about ideas.

i feel good with massive and i can do pretty much anything i need or want to. you can modulate far more than you can predict there, so with my limitations it's more than enough.

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by Hades »

oh the modulation options are more than fine in Massive, but you can't change it's structure, and to me if you decide to go FM all the way it doesn't make sense to use Masive which doesn't have enough oscillators to provide for enough modulators.
Operator or FM8 makes far more sense.
Besides, with M4L now you have a lot of extra modulators you can route to other synths so it makes a bit up for the lack of modulation options on other synths.
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willemb
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by willemb »

You can do so much interesting stuff with just 1 op FM though, no harm in mastering that before going for more operators!

Logic's EFM1 is one of my favourite synths, and as the name suggests, its a 1 op FM. I made an entire track with just sounds based in the EFM1 before (although i cant remember which track it was?).

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by krypt »

Hades wrote:Operator or FM8 makes far more sense.
Of course they do. I thought its obvious to use Opeartor. FM8 is great too, that's a classic. Even though, I like Massive most, but to be honest, the usage of vst also depends on sound type which I want to create. Massive is really good for pads/drones and cutoffed layers. For basses/leads there is amazing z3ta (probably the best synth vst plugin in the world). Reaktor is very decent. Recently I tried Hybrid which was shared by calum in one of the topics for free. Really nice synth, very good sound.

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Re: Oscilloscope/ FM synthesis

Post by seanocean »

krypt wrote:
I usually begin with 1 oscillator (operator, carrier). First stage is to design the framework of a sound via ADSR envelope: there you decide whether its short bleep or long pad or whatever, how does it act over time. Then add more layers with voicing and other oscillators (because the true FM is combining oscillators). Then you have filters, more oscillators and so on.
i haven't gotten around to how to make a noise.. i'll buy that this weekend. though.. my only experience with FM is tweaking cross modulation, stuff like the nord lead 1 and blofeld, or maybe messing with lfo until it starts ringing, or similar idea. i understand the basic principles. but as far as a working method, your approach with the amp is the best so far.
on normal synths you just follow the signal path, or however the synth is layed out. for 'tricky' synths like the DX series, it's just another beast entirely so i've had a hard time trying to find a working method. plus you can layer up so many parameters, or the presets have so many parameters, it's really difficult to pick them apart. when you factor in keyboard scaling and velocity (or whatever else i'm missing), it's just too easy to get lost.
< me, programming, minding my own business... ... ... "the fuck was that? how come it doesn't do that again?" then spending hours chasing it.

maybe i should look into stuff like FM8 to get a different frame of reference, though i've messed with logic's FM synth and it's just as fiddly as anything. i guess i'll just dive in and spend some quality time with the dx7ii. suppose it's the only way.
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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by krypt »

Hey man, just be patient! As I wrote in one of the first posts, patience is key factor in fm synthesis. It takes dozens of hours to get around. And the basics, background knowledge really helps. I was setenced to FM synthesis because I always wanted to design my own sounds, but never had money for synths (yes, I couldn't afford even those cheap ones). Now I can, but it's my choice to stick to software plugins. They give you better, more precise sound-control than the knobs on hardware - but you have to know what you are doing (in the contrary to the hardware, which is more intuitive).
I can send you the e-book via e-mail, its no problem. Just write me private message. I recommend you the first steps:
1. Read this short text by John Chowning if you haven't done it before [it basically draws the whole context of the synthesis]
2. Fiddle with Operator [it works exactly as in the abovementioned text by Chowning. You can even apply his examples in creating some funny sounds]
3. Obtain "how to make a noise ebook"
4. Fiddle with FM8 or z3ta+
5. Don't tell anyone because those are my secret stuff where I design Krypt sounds :D

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Re: Oscilloscope

Post by Planar »

Serum does single op/carrier FM very well and you can modulate the wavetables while FMing to get some really interesting sounds. Zebra also does it very well and you can use more than 1 operator. I don't recommend Z3ta, I used to use it as my workhorse subtractive synth and IMO it's showing it's age. I've already mentioned Aalto in this thread.

However, if you're serious about learning FM stick with Operator or FM8, they'll give you maximum capabilities and interfaces designed around the FM concept. Start with percussive sounds as these are less reliant on getting the op ratios right and will teach you the enveloping concept. Move on from there.


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