Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Alume »

ICN wrote:
Alume wrote:What gear are you planning to set up? For instance, I slave ableton to my machinedrum and then send midi data via usb to my beatstep, which then sends midi information to my minibrute.

I dont know if its the best way but I can say that its not always as easy as in-->thru-->in-->thru.

Somethimes you need to get creative as some gear has limited connectivity. The beatstep for instance has no midi in(only usb), so i had to run the midi signals from my machinedrum through my daw first.
I have a Machine Drum, DSI MEK & a DX21 so it would be great to have them hooked up. I'd use them a lot more if I did. I think all is pretty straightforward in terms of available connections with my stuff..

So.. you slave Live to the MD. I was reading a few things about that. Does it fuck up the project when you reopen & you dont have the Live slaved to the MD, or the MD turned off.

n00b questions galore here people. Bring some popcorn :D
Mind you.. my setup is not ideal, I've been fucking around with midi for 2 months now so I'm just as much a noob as you are.

When I dont need the md to sequence any other gear or when I simply have recorded HW audio I like for my track I disable the EXT-button(external syncbutton, left up in the main screen) in live. This means live is back being a master sequencer and I can go into arrangement like i am used to with audio clips i can automate etc etc.

When I want to automate stuff using my hardware, like decays of percussions or resonances on pads, I just record longer. or the whole track. Its fairly simple. Just layer it up.

Is that what you mean?

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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by innovine »

ICN wrote:Right.. thats some good info for me there.. who is trying to understand the basics. Yeah.. I've seen those Merge boxes. Was wondering what they were for. Thats useful to know. Thanks!

8 fucking years!! Whaaaa!! :mrgreen:

I think I may get one of those Thru boxes to begin with & see what doors there are to open after that. What sort of ways would you use the Merge boxes? For what kind of applications? Just to get an idea Mate :)
Well, you can use a Merge box when you have two MIDI OUTs, like say from two different synths, and you only have one MIDI IN, like to your DAW (adding cheap USB interfaces gets you another in/out pair which is why i suggested it. or an interface with several in/outs). But if you only have one IN and one OUT on your daw, you can't hook both synths up at the same time. You could hook the OUT of the daw to the IN of the first synth, and the Thru from that one to the second synth, so you can send midi notes from the daw to both, but if you are going to jam around and twist some knobs, you'll want to merge the outs from both synths via a merge box, or two two separate midi interfaces, so both arrive in your daw. There you will record all the knob positions. When you hit play, the knob twist data and the notes go from the daw midi OUT to the midi IN of the first synth, and Thru to the midi in of the second, and your knob tweaking gets heard. Hope that makes sense and isn't too basic.

8 years might be an exaggeration, but I just wanted to get the point across that this stuff is actually kinda complicated, and gets ever more so when you add more gear. Even in the little example above you might run into issues such as midi feedback (when your daw routes the incoming midi back out, thru the synths and back into the daw, and out and around and around till something crashes). You'll also mess with Local on/off on synths (ie if you had a keyboard synth, when you press a key should the midi go direct to the sound engine, or out the MIDI OUT only, through the daw for recording, and back to the synths IN to actually trigger the sound? This can avoid the midi feedback mentioned.

There is no real shortcut, especially when all different gear has all different kinds of kinks and weirdness. Just mess about (A LOT) and be prepared to re-wire it now and then as your collection of gear grows, your workflow changes, or you get bored...

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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Críoch »

Alume wrote:

Mind you.. my setup is not ideal, I've been fucking around with midi for 2 months now so I'm just as much a noob as you are.

When I dont need the md to sequence any other gear or when I simply have recorded HW audio I like for my track I disable the EXT-button(external syncbutton, left up in the main screen) in live. This means live is back being a master sequencer and I can go into arrangement like i am used to with audio clips i can automate etc etc.

When I want to automate stuff using my hardware, like decays of percussions or resonances on pads, I just record longer. or the whole track. Its fairly simple. Just layer it up.

Is that what you mean?
Yeah man.. cool to hear about your workflow. Thats pretty much what I meant. But when you go back to Live being the master sequencer.. are there any problems going between the 2? I'm thinking the audio clips that you've recorded being out? or is all that taken care of?

I'm a n00b n00b n00b :D
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Críoch »

innovine wrote:
Well, you can use a Merge box when you have two MIDI OUTs, like say from two different synths, and you only have one MIDI IN, like to your DAW (adding cheap USB interfaces gets you another in/out pair which is why i suggested it. or an interface with several in/outs). But if you only have one IN and one OUT on your daw, you can't hook both synths up at the same time. You could hook the OUT of the daw to the IN of the first synth, and the Thru from that one to the second synth, so you can send midi notes from the daw to both, but if you are going to jam around and twist some knobs, you'll want to merge the outs from both synths via a merge box, or two two separate midi interfaces, so both arrive in your daw. There you will record all the knob positions. When you hit play, the knob twist data and the notes go from the daw midi OUT to the midi IN of the first synth, and Thru to the midi in of the second, and your knob tweaking gets heard. Hope that makes sense and isn't too basic.

8 years might be an exaggeration, but I just wanted to get the point across that this stuff is actually kinda complicated, and gets ever more so when you add more gear. Even in the little example above you might run into issues such as midi feedback (when your daw routes the incoming midi back out, thru the synths and back into the daw, and out and around and around till something crashes). You'll also mess with Local on/off on synths (ie if you had a keyboard synth, when you press a key should the midi go direct to the sound engine, or out the MIDI OUT only, through the daw for recording, and back to the synths IN to actually trigger the sound? This can avoid the midi feedback mentioned.

There is no real shortcut, especially when all different gear has all different kinds of kinks and weirdness. Just mess about (A LOT) and be prepared to re-wire it now and then as your collection of gear grows, your workflow changes, or you get bored...
Cool man! Had to read over that a couple of times but I've got it I think. Yeah, I guess its all theorising unless you are in the middle of it all, with problems galore and then have to try & come up with some solutions. Becoming more adventurous needs more equipment. Bottomless pit, eh?

I'm sure I'll probably do a search on google some day & come back to this topic! haha
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Críoch »

Guys.. would something like this work? Are these units standalone.. or do they need software to hook up properly with a soundcard?

Yamaha YME8

http://www.polynominal.com/site/studio/ ... -yme8.html

Just scanning.. Exhausting avenues.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by innovine »

ICN wrote:Guys.. would something like this work? Are these units standalone.. or do they need software to hook up properly with a soundcard?

Yamaha YME8

http://www.polynominal.com/site/studio/ ... -yme8.html

Just scanning.. Exhausting avenues.
I only took a glance but that looked like a standalone device to me. But I'm uncertain if a Thru box is what you want. In my experience it's been more useful to merge 2 midi signals than to split one into many. I guess it depends very much on what you are trying to achieve exactly. What gear are you trying to hook up?

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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Críoch »

innovine wrote:
ICN wrote:Guys.. would something like this work? Are these units standalone.. or do they need software to hook up properly with a soundcard?

Yamaha YME8

http://www.polynominal.com/site/studio/ ... -yme8.html

Just scanning.. Exhausting avenues.
I only took a glance but that looked like a standalone device to me. But I'm uncertain if a Thru box is what you want. In my experience it's been more useful to merge 2 midi signals than to split one into many. I guess it depends very much on what you are trying to achieve exactly. What gear are you trying to hook up?
Thanks man...

I have a Elektron Machine Drum.. A DSI Mono Evolver & a Yamaha DX21 that I would like to have hooked up to my soundcard. Ideally I would have a template.. or at least have the freedom to be able to add midi channels in Live which would get sent out individual midi cables, reducing the need to plug shit in/out all the time.

Looking further on down the road.. It would be handy to record the midi out from the machine drum into Live & of course.. I'd like to use the machine drums sequencer to trigger the Mono Evolver &/or DX21.

There is a sequencer in The Mono Evolver also.. so to be able to record that into Live.. or use it to trigger the DX21 would be the aim too.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by seanocean »

most I/O have a midi port on them from which you can daisy chain synths and drum machines and their thru ports as it was mentioned. but if you're looking to do some gear, i recommend a thru box. something like the midi solutions series is really great with rock solid timing.

depending on how you have your gear set up you can have a keyboard set up as a master in the loop from I/O in the daw and fan out your midi channels from there. or maybe if your controller has the capability you can route midi outside the daw. there's lots of ways to do it but having a midi thru box really helps.. especially when you don't even want to use a piece of gear and it doesn't have to be turned on to make the midi connection in the chain. less of a head ache as well when you can't figure out why a midi signal isn't getting through to another box, you'll just know it's because that cable is faulty or the machine is set to global or something strange.

if you're just getting into MIDI i fully encourage it. it's really wonderful. once you get into program changes, and taking CC messages from your daw and mapping them to your outboard kit. or picking and mixing and matching those control changes, weird and strange things happen. things you could never think of just appear out of the blue by accident. really fun and exciting.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Hades »

innovine wrote: In my experience it's been more useful to merge 2 midi signals than to split one into many.
why do you think this is more useful, if I may ask ?

in my opinion MIDI can get far more complicated when you start merging signals.
splitting them up is far more headache-free if you ask me.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Hades »

all right John, I think it's safe to say I'm a far over-equiped under-skilled gearjunkie :oops:

just my thoughts on this subject after dealing with MIDI for years :

don't do the thru/midi chaining thing. Eventually your timing won't be working correctly anymore at the end of the chain (remember MIDI is 30 years old and still version 1.0 !!!!), and everything you do on the first synths of the chain can possible be sent out to the next pieces of the chain which might give you terrible moments of scratching your head trying to figure out why this or that happens. Plus (as mentioned before) : you need to turn on all your gear for it properly work.
daisychaining MIDI is only a poor man's solution and you deserve better than that ! ;)

get yourself a proper midi patchbay !
It is dead easy to set up (usually it's even easier to figure out how you want to set it up than with audio patchbay's)
and you'll be set for years.
I got myself the Motu 128 MIDI express James suggested earlier in this thread and it's dead easy.
You just hook everything up, connect the MOTU via USB to Live and you're done.
Now you can use any of your synths as a controller/step sequencer (for those who have one of course)/... by opening a MIDI track in Live, selecting the input of your MOTU that the synth you wanna use is connected to, and then route the output of that MIDI channel in Live to the correct port of your MOTU (the one where the synth you want to control is connected to).

All I had to take into account was that I have 2 synths that have extra controllers inbetween, but other than that it was as simple as :
out synth 1 to in MOTU 1, out MOTU 1 to IN synth 1
out synth 2 to in MOTU 2, out MOTU 2 to IN synth 2
...

Oh yeah, only one small downside of the MOTU : no power switch; so if you reboot the computer, you gotta unplug the USB cable at the back of the MOTU and plug it back in afterwards, otherwise Live won't receive it's messages anymore.

I have no idea why you're afraid of using USB on mac.
I have a UBS hub with 10 ins, if I remember correctly, and almost all of them are constantly filled. Never had a problem at all while using several controllers.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Hades »

oh yeah, another thing : after all these years I try to keep my life as simple as possible now that kids and all that make it even more complicated day after day :)

Usually I play in my parts manually in Live, then correct the MIDI clips if necessary.
(obviously in about 3 months you can ask your son to do that for you, be sure to lock him up in the basement if he doesn't do it right, I can provide you with a big poster of Marc Dutroux for extra punishment sessions, a signed copy will cost you extra though ! :mrgreen: )
Then I play the clips out to the external synth and record the audio.
I will almost always record the audio, I think I have maybe 10 MIDI clips in my Live clips library in total and hundreds of audio clips.
As I once told you before : I usually label these like "name of synth/name or number of sound/name of FX/name of FX/..."
this made my life so much easier.
When I want enough changes in the sound I try to record longer clips with variations of the loop. And with the names and other info I can usually get back to the sound if I still need to.

The times where I didn't do this I regretted it afterwards.
With SW I thought this wasn't necessary, but after Sigmund's new version made Live not recognize all my clips where I used the old version of Sigmund on, I changed my mind about that as well...

Record the audio man, it makes living with HW possible, otherwise you'll regret it when you can't get exactly back to where you were yesterday or last week or whatever...
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Hades »

another thing to watch out for :
when you record a certain clip and play it back to the synth and you start tweaking that synth, make sure live isn't set to receive MIDI in from all ins on that track, otherwise Live will most likely start recording all your knob movements (usually as MIDI CC parameters).
If of course you want to record this, then that's fine, but then be sure to unlink the automation clip, or make your loop long enough, otherwise it will keep on overwriting your MIDI data.
You can set up live not to do this, or just to add more MIDI info on top of what's already recorded, but this is only useful when you want to add more notes, not when you're turning the same knob. It can't add more knob movements of the same parameter without overwriting the earlier recorded info.

Oh yeah, another great and easy thing about the setup with my MOTU : I don't think I have any of my synths set to another channel than 1 except for my drum computer.
Since I use a differen MIDI OUT port for each of them there is no need whatsoever to change the MIDI channels ever.
If I don't hear sound coming out of a synth I have the reflex to check the MIDI channel to see if it's correct, cause I'm an old school dinosaur, but I know enough people who would be scratching their heads for a while.

And one last thing : Live isn't the best at sending out MIDI timing information, in other words : it's not reliable for a steady clock signal/timing.
I used to have my Xbase set up so that it received the MIDI tempo from Live and I swear I could sometimes just hear it go from 130bpm to something like 120bpm and back up, for no reason whatsoever. :shock:
UN!T (god bless his cuntish soul wherever he might be now) and I had a conversation about this a few months back.
This is also why alume uses his machinedrum as a master.
As soon as I started slaving Live's clock to the clock of my Xbase all problems disappeared immediately.
It's rather baffling to think such a great piece of SW as Live still isn't very reliable for sending out MIDI (and I do mean sending out to external HW, not sending it to softsynth internally), but honestly : Live is far far better used as an audio sequencer than as a MIDI sequencer.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by innovine »

In contrast to hades, I have lots of midi clips, and very little audio. I just pull up a few standard midi techno clips and then get to work on the patch. I focus a lot on mixing in near realtime, and creating long evolving jam sessions. If I do this in audio I just end up with tons of clips I never listen to. I record the cc's too, which means I can play back a lot of stuff without worrying about tempo changes (This is very important for my dnb music, as i play drums along with it and being flexible with the tempo is really important. I don't trust the audio stretching, at least for big stretches). I don't think there's much in the way of original sequencing to be found in techno, a few bassline patterns, a few standard drum patterns, and everything else is manipulating the knobs and sounds. So it makes sense to me to represent the sequence in midi so I can reuse it.

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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Críoch »

Hades wrote:all right John, I think it's safe to say I'm a far over-equiped under-skilled gearjunkie :oops:

just my thoughts on this subject after dealing with MIDI for years :

don't do the thru/midi chaining thing. Eventually your timing won't be working correctly anymore at the end of the chain (remember MIDI is 30 years old and still version 1.0 !!!!), and everything you do on the first synths of the chain can possible be sent out to the next pieces of the chain which might give you terrible moments of scratching your head trying to figure out why this or that happens. Plus (as mentioned before) : you need to turn on all your gear for it properly work.
daisychaining MIDI is only a poor man's solution and you deserve better than that ! ;)

get yourself a proper midi patchbay !
It is dead easy to set up (usually it's even easier to figure out how you want to set it up than with audio patchbay's)
and you'll be set for years.
I got myself the Motu 128 MIDI express James suggested earlier in this thread and it's dead easy.
You just hook everything up, connect the MOTU via USB to Live and you're done.
Now you can use any of your synths as a controller/step sequencer (for those who have one of course)/... by opening a MIDI track in Live, selecting the input of your MOTU that the synth you wanna use is connected to, and then route the output of that MIDI channel in Live to the correct port of your MOTU (the one where the synth you want to control is connected to).

All I had to take into account was that I have 2 synths that have extra controllers inbetween, but other than that it was as simple as :
out synth 1 to in MOTU 1, out MOTU 1 to IN synth 1
out synth 2 to in MOTU 2, out MOTU 2 to IN synth 2
...

Oh yeah, only one small downside of the MOTU : no power switch; so if you reboot the computer, you gotta unplug the USB cable at the back of the MOTU and plug it back in afterwards, otherwise Live won't receive it's messages anymore.

I have no idea why you're afraid of using USB on mac.
I have a UBS hub with 10 ins, if I remember correctly, and almost all of them are constantly filled. Never had a problem at all while using several controllers.
Cheers Tom for all these replies. Been working last few days.. so all I've had time for is short replies to stuff.. so apologies for the delay in responding to ya! :D

Cool..

I have a Kenton Thru5 on the way.. so hopefully that will keep me clear of the daisies! Like the look of the Motu.. but will keep this for a bit anyway. See how I get on. It'll keep me going until I realise fully what I need, innit.

The Motu looks good alright.. but i had bad experiences with USB & Mac before. I've been weary ever since. That and USB ports have been in short supply on my Mac. But I actually have an expansion card in my Mac Pro now.. & have never had any problems.. so possibly I should try again. Btw.. my troubles were with a NI Audio Kontrol 1. Piece of shit - on Mac from my experiences. NI admitted it didnt work properly with Mac & I got my money back after MONTHS of emails. But fair play.. got the result in the end.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Críoch »

Hades wrote:oh yeah, another thing : after all these years I try to keep my life as simple as possible now that kids and all that make it even more complicated day after day :)

Usually I play in my parts manually in Live, then correct the MIDI clips if necessary.
(obviously in about 3 months you can ask your son to do that for you, be sure to lock him up in the basement if he doesn't do it right..)

Record the audio man, it makes living with HW possible, otherwise you'll regret it when you can't get exactly back to where you were yesterday or last week or whatever...
Some great chat there Mate. Love the basement buzz haha.. but seriously.. you have hit on a great angle there. I really should be showing my Son stuff like that. GIve him a task. Love it. Thanks a lot for that idea. I am definitely going to do this.

Audio? Yes Sir. Of course Sir.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by Críoch »

Hades wrote:another thing to watch out for :
when you record a certain clip and play it back to the synth and you start tweaking that synth, make sure live isn't set to receive MIDI in from all ins on that track, otherwise Live will most likely start recording all your knob movements (usually as MIDI CC parameters).
If of course you want to record this, then that's fine, but then be sure to unlink the automation clip, or make your loop long enough, otherwise it will keep on overwriting your MIDI data.
You can set up live not to do this, or just to add more MIDI info on top of what's already recorded, but this is only useful when you want to add more notes, not when you're turning the same knob. It can't add more knob movements of the same parameter without overwriting the earlier recorded info.

Oh yeah, another great and easy thing about the setup with my MOTU : I don't think I have any of my synths set to another channel than 1 except for my drum computer.
Since I use a differen MIDI OUT port for each of them there is no need whatsoever to change the MIDI channels ever.
If I don't hear sound coming out of a synth I have the reflex to check the MIDI channel to see if it's correct, cause I'm an old school dinosaur, but I know enough people who would be scratching their heads for a while.

And one last thing : Live isn't the best at sending out MIDI timing information, in other words : it's not reliable for a steady clock signal/timing.
I used to have my Xbase set up so that it received the MIDI tempo from Live and I swear I could sometimes just hear it go from 130bpm to something like 120bpm and back up, for no reason whatsoever. :shock:
UN!T (god bless his cuntish soul wherever he might be now) and I had a conversation about this a few months back.
This is also why alume uses his machinedrum as a master.
As soon as I started slaving Live's clock to the clock of my Xbase all problems disappeared immediately.
It's rather baffling to think such a great piece of SW as Live still isn't very reliable for sending out MIDI (and I do mean sending out to external HW, not sending it to softsynth internally), but honestly : Live is far far better used as an audio sequencer than as a MIDI sequencer.
Lots of good insight mate. As with all the posts in this thread. I honestly didnt expect to get as much from this thread as I have. I didnt think there was so much to say about MIDI or that folk would want to talk about it haha.

I keep hearing that about Live. I will have to do some tests for myself I think.
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Re: Multiple Midi Devices Into DAW / Computer? Synths etc..

Post by msl »

ICN wrote:Cheers Michael! Yeah that makes sense mate.

But how to do with 'one' midi cable without plugging it around? Do you just chain the Midi Devices with other cable. & what, then assign them different midi channel numbers too?

I've never chained anything up.. ins/outs is that what its for?

You need to spoonfeed me here if I'm blathering on..

Sorry didn't bother reading the whole thread, basically save yourself the hassle with daisy chaing and thru boxes, just get a midi interface with enough i/o, I've used ESI, Maudio, and now have Motu (Micro Lite). They all work fine, plug and play, buy used. Get an 8 channel one set up your template and never worry about it again. I prefer to have each instrument on its own i/o.

4x4 http://m-audio.com/products/view/midisp ... ry-edition
8x8 http://www.esi-audio.com/products/m8uxl/
5x5 http://www.motu.com/products/midi/lite
8x9 http://www.motu.com/products/midi/128

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