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 Post subject: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:47 pm 
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So I read in Void's home mastering guide about RMS and competitive loudness and, to keep it short, I downloaded mvMeter which has a dial to tune RMS, so I just put it to -12. My question is: is it ok to do it just like that, or should I get to the target RMS by tuning the separate channels? Also, what are the mechanics of the plugin, does it work like a limiter or what? The technical side of sound is a bit weird for me (RMS, phase cancellation on the top of my mind) if anyone can point me to a comprehensive guide/explanation i would be very grateful! Sorry if my writing is silly, 5 people are speaking as I write and english is not my native language. BTW Unbelievable forum, a lot of extremely useful info, and some great humor and open, helpful, and positive cunts here! You are the true heroes of techno!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Well -12 RMS doesn't mean anything until it is in relation to peak.
If you were setting your audio with the mvmeter prevail to -12RMS but you had 14db in peak over that, you just clipped 2db of peaks in the worst way possible.

So my original point about aiming for a final MIX level of around -12 RMS also comes with the assumption that you are then peaking around -1db.


So with that context in mind, the point is to produce your music with a maximum dynamic range (difference between peak and RMS) of around 11-12db.
If you produce consistently to this level, not only is it going to help your technique, it will attune your ears to a standard. As you continuously produce to this level you will learn what is right sounding and wrong sounding at this level, and your mix decisions will become easier and easier over time.

So just using a gain plugin I the master chain is completely the wrong way of going about things (unless you are producing to a DR of around 12 but at a much lower level).

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Well my master is showing -19db peak, and the mV is now around -10db. How would I go about changing the RMS without affecting peak? I'm sorry if I'm asking something retarded or not making sense, I'm trying really hard to translate my questions and the RMS in the room is +20db :x and I can't have fucking time alone for some time now so I got pissed and decided to just ask/read/write amidst the chaos. I really can't get a grip on how Hades and the lot of parents manage to have time for music, I'm starting to worry I'll never play again. Rant done.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I think I explained it pretty well in the mastering tutorial.

You should probably look in to gain staging, it helps get more consistency in terms of your channel and master levels. Producing with a peak of -19 says to me there is no gain staging going on at all.

Compression, saturation, soft clipping, envelope control, pre amp emulation, channel emulation. All these things can help gently control dynamic level.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Well I worked on a track and adjusted the channels so that the master peaks around -6db. Then I re-read your guide, got that plug which showed around -4db RMS, so I dialed it back down to -12 and then the master peak showed around -19. I may be missing that master peak by a few numbers but it's -15 to -19. I do gain staging via Utility on each channel to adjust the relation of the sounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:23 am 
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Utility has no meter, how can you consistently gain stage with it?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:24 am 
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Dilinger wrote:
Well I worked on a track and adjusted the channels so that the master peaks around -6db. Then I re-read your guide, got that plug which showed around -4db RMS, so I dialed it back down to -12 and then the master peak showed around -19. I may be missing that master peak by a few numbers but it's -15 to -19. I do gain staging via Utility on each channel to adjust the relation of the sounds.


Wait...thats makes no sense. If your peaks were at -6 then it is impossible for your rms to have been -4. RMS is lower than peak.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:26 am 
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Well basicly I adjust gain with utility, listen with my ears and check the channel meters and make a relationship of the sounds that I'm happy with, while adjusting the whole so the master peaks at around -6. Should it go another way? Gonna check those levels to make sure, sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Yeah, that`s not really what gain staging is about at all. There`s no consistency in doing it by ear, it`s about plugin/signal chain, not channel meters.
You do seem very confused with the whole process actually.
I`m going to be doing a new guide on production fundamentals which might help.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Do you mean watching the fx chain and making sure it's not clipping anywhere along the chain? Also I've checked the levels and I was a bit more off. With mV disabled peak is at -4.71 and RMS hops around -1. So I dialed it back on mV to get -12 and then the peak is around -15. mV mode is set to RMS-12


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:33 pm 
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It`s impossible for peaks to be -4 and RMS to be -1.
I think you probably need to read some basics on metering and what it means.
I`ll have a look for some good guides and link them up.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:13 pm 
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https://www.dubstepforum.com/forum/view ... hp?t=74832

Something I found helpful when I started learning about Gain Staging.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Here's a pic. Thanks for that read Nomad


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:39 am 
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Yeah you are not using that meter right, nor reading it correctly. The RMS modes are k system modes. If you don't understand the K system, don't use em.
In RMS K metering mode 0db is -12 RMS, or yellow zone in k metering. Though I'm not quite sure how the calibration for the 3 zones works on this meter.

In fact as a matter I wouldn't suggest using that one at all, after doing some research there appear to be accuracy and timing issues.

Klanghelm does a great VU meter. Running in standard VU mode is great.
0db as -18dbfs is a great guide and a really good standard to work with.

It's why I recommend Sonimus Satson.

You need to use a meter you can understand, I recommend Brainworx bx meter. It's a very nice large meter, with nice peak and RMS hold function, and easy to read.
Or if you are strapped for cash, sonalksis free g has a nice meter.


I'll be doing a number of new tutorials\guides to go in the sticky collection this year.
One of them will be about levels and gain staging.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:25 pm 
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Thanks a lot man. I'd really appreciate a retard guide to thebscience of sound, db, and the like. It interests me but can't really grasp it


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Nomadjames, that forum is basicly saying what I considered gain staging, and what I did in the mentioned project. Kick was set around -11, bass a bit lower and then everything else a bit lower still, and set in a relationship that pleased me ie. Shaker is louder than hats, I don't want it like that, bring down the shaker, and all elements were built like that. As far as I can tell, that's what they consider gain staging as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Yeah, that forum thread is a little misleading and mostly ass.

Gainstaging (I`ll say this again) is NOT about channel faders.

Gainstaging is about input and inter device/plugin levels.

You set the gain staging on the output of the device, lets say, a synth, and it run in to a meter/gain (which is why sonimus satson is highly recommended). You set your gain level to 0db (or hotter if you are going for saturation), with 0db set as -18dbfs. This instantly gives plenty of headroom for the next plug in the chain (whatever it may be).
And sets a good working level before you have even touched the channel fader.
You then have a meter on the master channel (again, sonimus recommended here) and keep the levels hitting 0db there too (at -18dbfs), and then as you add tracks, keep adjusting their faders (downwards is more likely) to retain the master meter at 0db.

This leads to a consistent (and never clipping) gain structure.

It has NOTHING TO DO with your channel faders as such. Which, of course, are set to taste depending on what levels you want your various elements at.

This is why I say, you really appear to not understand the entire process of gain structure, levels, and metering.
So are running blindly throwing numbers around, not really understanding.
Nothing wrong with this, everyone starts at the beginning and moves along the path of knowledge and skill.
But walk before you fly, get back to basics and read up on sound gain structure practice, and metering etc.

And try to find something less confusion and headless chicken filled than that dubstep forum thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:41 pm 
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nomadjames wrote:
https://www.dubstepforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=74832


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:02 pm 
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So basically if I'm getting you, gain staging is just taking care that the sound is at an optimal level and not clipping at every step of the signal chain?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about rms and competitive loudness
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:18 pm 
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Yes, and by doing this, with a (european standard) of 0= -18dbfs it means you work consistently, and thus can monitor consistently which means EQ work becomes easier and easier over time, as do all mix related decisions.

And this is without even discussing peak and rms in master channel terms.

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