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 Post subject: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Allrighty, since I've made myself a little home here - thanks again for the warme welcome you lovely cunts and the input so far - I'm ready to get ripped apart. Constructive criticism and the compliment sandwich are highly appreciated ;) Thanks for taking the time to listen to my shit and give me feedback. Hit me!

https://soundcloud.com/shidzo/tacker/s-DTWj1

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:59 pm 
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really nice set of sounds. and the arrangement is creative too.
but..the low end is low in volume. first the kick is kind of lost and it s like there s no bass.(actually I think there is no bass if that was intended )
I think I understand what is your vision with this track.
try making the kick the dominating element on the lows. anchor it in a specific level and balance all the other elements according to that.
you want it dominating and present.
some other elements don t come through at all.
in general the track lacks in cohesion . don t get me wrong it is a nice idea. it just needs a better rundown of mixing. a better balance.

I think that was a balanced sandwich! :)

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:21 pm 
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I think the mix balance is fine but the track does lack lowend. In general it feels very clinical and over-EQd.


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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:16 am 
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kostas wrote:
really nice set of sounds. and the arrangement is creative too.
but..the low end is low in volume. first the kick is kind of lost and it s like there s no bass.(actually I think there is no bass if that was intended )
I think I understand what is your vision with this track.
try making the kick the dominating element on the lows. anchor it in a specific level and balance all the other elements according to that.
you want it dominating and present.
some other elements don t come through at all.
in general the track lacks in cohesion . don t get me wrong it is a nice idea. it just needs a better rundown of mixing. a better balance.

I think that was a balanced sandwich! :)


Very balanced sandwich, thank you for that. Glad you like the arrangement :)

I'm a bit surprised about the lack of low end though, I thought there is definitely enough going on. I have a tom playing under the kick and the kick has some decay going on, too. On top of my ears I used to reference tracks and a spectrum analyzer. So far I've been thinking low end is a tricky one and even when it sounds like there is "not much going on" you still have all these sub bass frequencies coming through (although I cut at let's say 30Hz with Ableton stock EQ8) Do you have any tipps on how to sort the low end out? What else can I use on top of the reference tracks and the spectrum? I use my headphones as well as my monitors. Monitors don't have a subwoofer.

Thanks again!!!

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:24 am 
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dubdub wrote:
I think the mix balance is fine but the track does lack lowend. In general it feels very clinical and over-EQd.


Thanks to you too! What do you mean by clinical?

My EQ usually has quite some dips in it, I hardly ever boost frequencies. I think the kick in this track is an "A" and as far as I remember (can upload a picture later...) I have a huge dip at around 110Hz. When I EQ my kick I listen for that part where it really sounds unnatural. Unnatural means to me that it sounds a bit like a flute or like when you hit two wood sticks on each other (hard to explain when you're not capable of speaking the proper music production language, so sorry for that...) In general just too much and different to the rest. Maybe even a bit whistling. Usually taking out the bit from 300-500Hz as well and then look for some more flute-kind of noises which I take out then.. Probably end up with 2-3-4 dips...

What do you think?

Thanks for taking the time!

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:33 pm 
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low end can be really confusing but eventually you re going to be more confident as to know when is enough or not.
monitoring the low end is the hard part. it depends on how low your monitors can go and of course the environment that is being reproduced.
these two factor are usually the common thing when someone is not confident about bass.
when you listen to the lows in an untreated room you are actually hearing the room and the sound nodes that are created by standing and bouncing sound waves. so when your track is reproduced on a different system it s not what it was intended. it takes a lot of guessing to nail the exact amount of lows that you want. you must know your speakers well and hearing your work on a bunch of different speakers so you ll understand how they translate on other environments.
you can use a studio correction tool, which also you must learn well as it s not always correct and from time to time result is a bit hyped. but it is definitely helping. at least to my experience.
and of course treat your room with a decent amount of treatment. it s a hell of an improvement. it is worth the money.
so am I saying something that you didn t know? more than often I m finding myself giving basic advice. if not you can start by what I ve already said. if you already know, then we can talk about the sound design itself. but don t make your life hard by trying to mix under harsh conditions.
hope I being helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:33 pm 
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kostas wrote:
low end can be really confusing but eventually you re going to be more confident as to know when is enough or not.
monitoring the low end is the hard part. it depends on how low your monitors can go and of course the environment that is being reproduced.
these two factor are usually the common thing when someone is not confident about bass.
when you listen to the lows in an untreated room you are actually hearing the room and the sound nodes that are created by standing and bouncing sound waves. so when your track is reproduced on a different system it s not what it was intended. it takes a lot of guessing to nail the exact amount of lows that you want. you must know your speakers well and hearing your work on a bunch of different speakers so you ll understand how they translate on other environments.
you can use a studio correction tool, which also you must learn well as it s not always correct and from time to time result is a bit hyped. but it is definitely helping. at least to my experience.
and of course treat your room with a decent amount of treatment. it s a hell of an improvement. it is worth the money.
so am I saying something that you didn t know? more than often I m finding myself giving basic advice. if not you can start by what I ve already said. if you already know, then we can talk about the sound design itself. but don t make your life hard by trying to mix under harsh conditions.
hope I being helpful.


I don't have a subwoofer, my monitors go down to somewhere around 50Hz, the headphones I have go further, they do 18Hz. I haven't treated my room at all, like nothing that absorbs or diffuses, I just spent hours setting the monitors up in the right angle and hight. Like I said, I use to listen to reference tracks to see where I am with my low end. Can you recommend any treatment to start with? My room is a square, very high ceilings and I'm in the corner. The speakers are 30cm from the wall. Thanks for the input.

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:44 pm 
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dubdub wrote:
I think the mix balance is fine but the track does lack lowend. In general it feels very clinical and over-EQd.


So... Yeah... Guess I've been cutting bit too much right...


Attachments:
Screen Shot 2017-11-30 at 19.44.41.png
Screen Shot 2017-11-30 at 19.44.41.png [ 27.6 KiB | Viewed 320 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Not read the other feedback on purpose, but technically, it sounds pretty good to me. The bass/ low end could do with a little less in terms of some frequencies. It sounds a little too dense. Perhaps try a gentle eq until it sounds less dense.

I like most of it, just not the chord progression. It's a little too obvious/simple. I know this is a big part of the track, so it's fine to ignore my comment. For me it's a bit too busy/ techy but that's a style thing, so feel free to ignore.

But technically, it sounds pretty dam spot on to me.

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:46 pm 
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SHIDZO wrote:
dubdub wrote:
I think the mix balance is fine but the track does lack lowend. In general it feels very clinical and over-EQd.


So... Yeah... Guess I've been cutting bit too much right...


Yeah, those notches are definitely way too much. By killing that much, you are literally cutting holes in your sound, it's always going to sound weird. I rarely notch more than 3-4db, it's generally enough to reduce resonance and problem areas without sounding unnatural. I also tend to prefer the 6db curve over the 12db filters for high/lows, sounds more natural and gives you more flexibility.


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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:00 pm 
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SHIDZO wrote:
I don't have a subwoofer, my monitors go down to somewhere around 50Hz, the headphones I have go further, they do 18Hz. I haven't treated my room at all, like nothing that absorbs or diffuses, I just spent hours setting the monitors up in the right angle and hight. Like I said, I use to listen to reference tracks to see where I am with my low end. Can you recommend any treatment to start with? My room is a square, very high ceilings and I'm in the corner. The speakers are 30cm from the wall. Thanks for the input.


well , referencing is a big deal. I mean you are referencing to a mastered wav that it was then transcoded into mp3 right? so I think you see the fault in this. try to hunt a unicorn!
I think you have the Neumann KH 120 A if I m not mistaken. so yes you getting around 50 hz. Meaning you cannot monitor the lows. 5'' are too small to reproduce those sines.
So considering what you have invested so far maybe you should include a nice subwoofer into your system and not change the monitors you have. But that s something that you should ask to a more experienced guys here. I ve never used a sub myself, and the opinions on the usefulness of it varies.
treatment is crucial. If you want to just make your life easier. don t waste your money on ready solutions like wholesale foam extra duper studio kit crap. I m a DIYer so i m making myself all bass traps and diffusers. Wood and rockwool. You can learn to do it from almighty youtube. The trick here is to understand what you room needs. Tip here:just wrap your rockwool with a not so transparent cloth you don t want the micro fibers travelling around the room, you only need the volume of the material, not the porus.
But treatment requires commitment of space and not all of us have a spare room. And of course you can hire somebody to make treatment for you but I don t think that this is the case.
And here you can be helped by a studio correction tool, arc2 or sonarworks ref. but don t just get the correction and expect to fix all problems in the room. help your room to help you.

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:17 pm 
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jordanneke wrote:
Not read the other feedback on purpose, but technically, it sounds pretty good to me. The bass/ low end could do with a little less in terms of some frequencies. It sounds a little too dense. Perhaps try a gentle eq until it sounds less dense.

I like most of it, just not the chord progression. It's a little too obvious/simple. I know this is a big part of the track, so it's fine to ignore my comment. For me it's a bit too busy/ techy but that's a style thing, so feel free to ignore.

But technically, it sounds pretty dam spot on to me.


Holy shit, that's very nice of you, thanks :) I feel a bit honoured now.. I had quite a few spins of your Medial track and I always think damn I want to achieve a sound like this. So that's that.

Yeah, the chords. I never even intended to make them like they ended up. It started somehow with a groove and I ended up with the track after a few evenings. Which is really fast for me, considering kick & bass took me 2 months until I was happy enough to move on.

It's funny that the two opinions I've got so far are too little and too much low end

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:33 pm 
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kostas wrote:
SHIDZO wrote:
I don't have a subwoofer, my monitors go down to somewhere around 50Hz, the headphones I have go further, they do 18Hz. I haven't treated my room at all, like nothing that absorbs or diffuses, I just spent hours setting the monitors up in the right angle and hight. Like I said, I use to listen to reference tracks to see where I am with my low end. Can you recommend any treatment to start with? My room is a square, very high ceilings and I'm in the corner. The speakers are 30cm from the wall. Thanks for the input.


well , referencing is a big deal. I mean you are referencing to a mastered wav that it was then transcoded into mp3 right? so I think you see the fault in this. try to hunt a unicorn!
I think you have the Neumann KH 120 A if I m not mistaken. so yes you getting around 50 hz. Meaning you cannot monitor the lows. 5'' are too small to reproduce those sines.
So considering what you have invested so far maybe you should include a nice subwoofer into your system and not change the monitors you have. But that s something that you should ask to a more experienced guys here. I ve never used a sub myself, and the opinions on the usefulness of it varies.
treatment is crucial. If you want to just make your life easier. don t waste your money on ready solutions like wholesale foam extra duper studio kit crap. I m a DIYer so i m making myself all bass traps and diffusers. Wood and rockwool. You can learn to do it from almighty youtube. The trick here is to understand what you room needs. Tip here:just wrap your rockwool with a not so transparent cloth you don t want the micro fibers travelling around the room, you only need the volume of the material, not the porus.
But treatment requires commitment of space and not all of us have a spare room. And of course you can hire somebody to make treatment for you but I don t think that this is the case.
And here you can be helped by a studio correction tool, arc2 or sonarworks ref. but don t just get the correction and expect to fix all problems in the room. help your room to help you.


Yes, referencing with a mastered wav, transcoded into mp3... I see where you're going. Can't really compare it then, can I?! With that last track I made I did not use my headphones at all and I think there is one of my mistakes. I can go much more into detail with the headphones. I will never change these monitors, they are just too fucking amazing. Don't really know about a subwoofer either, one of my neighbours is a real cunt. I can go quite loud-ish with the monitors, but when I switch my big Teufel stereo on to just listen to some tunes he comes up here causing drama. Have a massive subwoofer on that system and I've already turned it nearly off. I'm happy he leaves me alone at the moment and I can make music until 10pm in a satisfying volume ;) touch wood! So yeah, I think headphones it is... I've been using them again for the last days and I can already tell the difference in my new project. Do you happen to have a picture of your studio? Would be interesting to see! I'm definitely keen to get a little bit of a treatment going on! Am a bit of a DIY guy as well, so yeah, definitely looking into the rockwool solution. Thanks for pointing me into the direction. I also did this clap test to see the natural reverb going on and to me it sounded ok and no whistling. Anyway, attached a picture of my "blacksmith" :) Cheers


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IMG_1142.JPG [ 84.66 KiB | Viewed 234 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Yeah, that bass is rattling my sub over here, definitely needs to be toned down a bit.
The house/trance style melodies and bass arp don't really fit your kick, and the rhythm section might also be somewhat schizophrenic (edit: ah now it makes sense :p) as it's half techno/half trance style (with the occasional double closed hat). Or it just sounds like that because of the trancy stuff, idk... Maybe you could turn it into 2 different projects, for example the bit starting at 2 minutes sounds like techno, but then that synth comes in and kind of distracts from the groove.

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:19 am 
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I like it. At first I was a bit iffy on the chord progression--same reasons as jordanneke. But when it develops, it works better--a bit reminiscent of the more cyberpunk-y edge of synthwave. I'm just not sure about how you get there.

The chords are also a little loud in relation to the kick, I think. Overpowers a touch.


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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:05 am 
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The_G wrote:
I'm just not sure about how you get there.


I have no idea :D

Thanks for the kind words!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:19 pm 
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so we start with this :

kostas wrote:
but..the low end is low in volume. first the kick is kind of lost and it s like there s no bass.(actually I think there is no bass if that was intended )


then this :

dubdub wrote:
I think the mix balance is fine but the track does lack lowend. In general it feels very clinical and over-EQd.


this :

vo0doo wrote:
Yeah, that bass is rattling my sub over here, definitely needs to be toned down a bit.


and this :

jordanneke wrote:
Not read the other feedback on purpose, but technically, it sounds pretty good to me. The bass/ low end could do with a little less in terms of some frequencies. It sounds a little too dense. Perhaps try a gentle eq until it sounds less dense.
...
But technically, it sounds pretty dam spot on to me.


One says there's almost no bass there, 2nd one says the same, 3rd guy says it's rattling his sub too much and then another says the bass might have too much frequency content.
One could say there's at least quite some contradiction going on in the feedback here.

So is this helpful at all to OP ? Or does that mean some of us might have to take their current listening environments into consideration when giving feedback ?

:idea:

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:33 pm 
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I am not talking here about people handing out personal opinion,
as in : "perhaps more modulation on the bass would be better",
or "I think it needs another element", or "it needs a better riff".
All of that is just a personal opinion,
but if we're all saying completely contradictory stuff about which frequencies are too much in the mix and which are not, then it says a lot about our listening environments,
and how we should be aware of them a little better, especially it's limitations.

Maybe it would be a decent idea in situations like this to mention the system/room you're listening in.
(doesn't have to be that detailed, just a brief explanation)
I got a decently treated room, but I'm still building extra acoustic panels and bass traps,
because I know I still have 2 problematic frequencies, and I've had it with that shit.
I have pretty decent monitors, and they should be reasonably well placed,
but yet I still check with headphones a lot of times when I give feedback,
just to be sure I'm not hearing just the room.

Do we all have perfect listening environments/studio's ? Of course not !!!
Many of us just work on headphones are have cheap monitors in a corner of our bedroom or something,
in a room with little to no acoustic treatment.
That's totally fine.
(Hell, Jordan still needs enough room to fit in 17 boomerangs ;) )
But then do take that into account when trying to give advice.
Because it's not helping OP in any way from what I read here.

Not trying to judge here, just trying to raise some questions and adding some grains of salt to what's been said. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:22 pm 
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I've wondered that before.

Personally I always try not to read comments before I comment. As that always colours my judgement.

But I can totally concede that I could be talking absolute nonsense. I'm always happy to retract my statements. But I will add that I know my headphones well enough to do 99% of my mixing on them.

Anyway, to reiterate, I'm probably talking shit.

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 Post subject: Re: SHIDZO - Tacker
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:42 pm 
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jordanneke wrote:
I've wondered that before.

Personally I always try not to read comments before I comment. As that always colours my judgement.

But I can totally concede that I could be talking absolute nonsense. I'm always happy to retract my statements. But I will add that I know my headphones well enough to do 99% of my mixing on them.

Anyway, to reiterate, I'm probably talking shit.


I honestly trust you know your shit, and will think twice before giving comment on something like that.
But like I said, I think it might help if we wrote stuff like
"not sure about the low end since I'm listening in an untreated room on blablabla headphones or only blablabla monitors"
not saying we need to do this all the time, but if we're drifting that far apart in opinions,
I think that might be helpful and be relevant.
I will never say you need expensive gear to make good tracks, but if you want to comment on mixing shit, you should have at least a proper listening environment.

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