Music/Audio related jobs, how to get involved??

[CRDM]

Hello Subsekters,

I hope your 2017s are starting off well and you've had some good time off.

I've always been more of a lurker on the forum, I post occasionally but never anything personal, in this instance though I wanted to ask all of you some broad questions that cover a general purpose as well as a few personal points.

So I'm at a bit of a crossroad in my life, I'm 25 years old, I studied at university (A journalism degree) which hasn't resulted in me getting any work from it, primarily because I didn't enjoy the course. It put me off the small bit of music journalism that I did and I haven't picked it up since. Since then I've been doing so so jobs, nothing fulfilling, jobs that pay the bills so I have space to improve musically which is where my real passion lies as I know it does for most of you.

I never used to be interested in a career as such in my early 20s and these kind of things didn't matter to me. However now I've grown somewhat I've come to realise I want my own music to be something I do out of love and enjoyment and not to pay the bills (which I always thought I'd want to work towards when I was younger), not that that's an option at the moment but it's something I'd like to keep that way, and if releases or development comes then that would be a great thing.

I'd love to be able to use any skills that I've gained from music to apply to something that could lead to income, so I don't have to spend time in a job that destroys my soul, whilst I can focus on my own music on the side. I recently have finished a track that will be used in a friends documentary/promo video soon and it got me thinking about the types of work I'd like to move into in the future and what would be an ideal situation, hence this thread.

So I just wanted to start a bit of a discussion here about this subject and hear your thoughts/experiences. Where do you start out trying to get into the audio field? What kind of routes have some of you taken to get where you are now? Any tips for someone like myself and my current situation?

I think in the near future the ideal would be a part time job, developing audio skills hopefully leading up to some form of work in the future and progressing my own music as a separate project just out of the love for it. I'm studying a Teaching English Course with the intention of moving abroad from the UK as I think it'd be a great experience, i could save some money to put into something when I get back and it would also free up a lot of time for me to work on my own music. I also just want to feel some sort of progression in life as I've hit the point where I'm just doing jobs to pay the rent and nothing past that. I recently moved to Bristol and have done a couple of jobs here, I haven't had a job since before Christmas all this free time has really got me thinking about which way to go. I feel there's so many directions that could be pursued it feels difficult to know what to do.

If there's any threads that are similar feel free to link me, I'm sure I saw one about balancing time/life with music which is fairly similar but I wanted to create a thread for this.

So without going on too much and to keep this post clear, I'd like to have some light shed on general career/work paths that some of you have experienced, any advice on getting into the audio field (any kind), any tips for someone at my point in life, and just general discussion about anything I've mentioned here. I know there's lots of us at varying stages of life so thought this could be interesting.

Thanks for reading,

Charlie

[dubdub]

The audio field in 2016 is sadly brutally difficult, even for people that have studied audio engineering. I know lots who have, none of them work as studio engineers (you need to be lucky and super talented to make it in that system nowadays), the ones who work in audio all do live sound (not even necessarily music event but conferences etc.), which pays the bills but can be quite irregular work.

Forget soundtrack work (that actually pays ie. not small documentaries) as an unknown, everyone and their mother is trying to get into it since records don't make any more anymore.

Steve and Mattias here work in audio and they have interesting biographies but they also started their journey 20+ years ago and not now, when the field is arguably more satured than ever.

Btw, there are more of these kind of threads if you do some searching.

[msl]

Its tough.

[Will Frances]

In Bristol there are quite a few post production houses doing long form and short form TV work, you could try and get a runner or assistant job there, which could mean in time you will get to use the kit and learn from experienced engineers and producers. Though this isn't strictly music related directly, it is an income and at a time where there are very few music studios left and minimal money floating around could be a good idea.

You could look at teaching music technology, or assisting.

There is actually a surprising number of variations in audio related jobs around but they are hard to find, weather it be TV Shortform, long form, advertising, voice recording, game sound design, cleaning up audio restoration for domestic or professional use, music editing, jingle composition, radio work etc etc.

Ive copied my words here from another thread;
I understand your want to move into the music/ audio field of work. I did it after becoming a carpenter when i left school. I studied music technology at college and university, from 2005-2009. Then I got a job in the Post production side of the TV industry. Was a runner/ tea boy for 18 months making 60 cups a day getting 15 lunches a day and running drives and tapes etc. around Soho, moved into an audio assistant role (transfer, tracklayer, foley, dialog editor and general dogs body) for 1 year, then started recroding ADR, continuity and animation voice recordings for many childrens tv programs for 1-2 year, then started doing ads, promos, trailers and mixing the odd series. I now work as a dubbing mixer and sound designer for Disney.

So it took me a while to earn a living wage which is buy no means a lavish one. However I do love my job and don't miss Carpentry and building work especially in the winter. I wanted to go into a music career when i left School and Uni, but all the people I know now and back then were struggling to get by on recording bands and working at music studios, a friend of mine was working at Britannia row part time/ freelance for minimal money as an audio Engineer and I think they are closing down now (like the rest of em!)

Sorry to blap on about my path, but i guess I should summarize by saying, I didn't need a degree to get a job as a runner and you still don't, you will learn all you need on the job, however it may take 3-5 years to get there (in post production). Some companies have large amount of runners up to 40. Turnover of staff is regular as people think oh i'll be mixing in 6 months and lose faith and quit, plus the starting wage is now around 15k which in london is insane, I started on 11k 2009.

I hope that helps in some way

[Lost to the Void]

I honestly don`t think anything has really changed.
Audio degrees are nice but not really worth much in employment terms.
It`s all about experience and getting to know the right people.
Working as tea boy/runner/janitor etc is the way in to most studio jobs.

My path to various audio jobs was, briefly.

Used to regularly record and rehears at a studio, got to know the owner, got interested in audio, started working there just as an assistant, lugging gear, cable tidying, fetching, plugging in/out etc.
This eventually led to me working there as a recording tech/engineer. No mixing, just purely the recording part, so dealing with mics for vocals, guitars, drums etc, and the reel to reel (no digital back then to speak of).
So that was how one job came about. It took a year of assisting before I worked there proper. And of course working there meant we got rehearsal space cheaper, and off time in the studio cheap/free.

Got really into illegal raves, started playing for a soundsystem, got invited to join soundsystem, learned how to set up soundsystem, got really in to that and started learning the actual technical stuff over the physical stuff. Guy who owned the rig also worked for a professional sound hire company, I eventually got a job with them, which led to leaning more about everything from wiring to setup, to acoustics to engineering. So I worked as a live sound engineer (lots and lots of corporate work), but also installed systems in clubs and bars (permanent systems), conducted maintenance etc. Invested in a soundsytem with my rig partner, and we began to do commercial work for our own company (he still runs that company now). That process was about 2 years learning before it became a job, and then continued to learn on the job and get better at it, and get better work.

All that time I was making music, getting better at mixing. Went back to my old studio and did some more recording engineering looking to do mix engineering, which eventually happened. As I already had connections that took less time to make the transition.

Then whilst working as a mix and recording engineer (mostly with upcoming bands, in a religiously analog studio), I was also releasing vinyl and always attended cuts, got interested in mastering, started ghosting a professional mastering engineer (2 actually) as one was an associate, the other an associate of an associate, no pay, in whatever time I had, and learned a ton on the job, worked for a while doing mastering but the commute was too much, decided to start my own business on the side to other work and slowly built the mastering studio to a point where last year it became a full time, fully viable professional job for me (so this is after 20 years roughly, of all the above) as opposed to something I do on the side of other stuff.

Now all this, I was a member of the Record Producers Guild, my old studio boss got me to sign up (yearly fee) way back. I was 19 or 20 years old. So I/We went to all the various meetings and demonstrations held (in the london events) at professional recording studios, and mingled with other professionals with all levels of experience (I even met my hero John Peel). This was invaluable, I made lots of connections, friendships, and learned much more than you ever could from a university degree. This also helped.
Incidentally the Record Producers Guild is now called the Music Producers Guild.

In all that time I don`t recall anyone really being given a job because they had a music technology degree etc. Although they help.

It really is about (if you are looking at technical, studio work) going to places, getting involved, being enthusiastic and also willing to do the crappy work (and so support yourself by other means until you truly earn), making connections etc.
You have to be very proactive and get out there.
There are all sorts of jobs within the audio field, you have to be persistent and patient.
I always had other jobs to bring in money alongside stuff. Quite often I would be working 9-5 in one job, then going straight to another job and working till 10 or 11. Or weekends or whatever. I did some insane jobs, some brutal jobs to support myself when other avenues weren`t filling my pocket.

For me a lot of the path was accidental, I found new areas of interest via the work I was doing, and have always had a unquenchable thirst for knowledge, before I ended up realising that my appreciation and obsession with the sound itself, the quality of the sound, the detail and nuance, and my critical skills, was best applied in mastering. I`m still learning all the time.

[JonasVolkenborn]

I did an internship in a studio for a year when I was twenty years old. It wasn`t payed and I had to move back to my parents. I did a lot of recording, writing down recall sheets, cocking coffee and so on. I just wanted to find out, if could imagine to do this for a lifetime. Though the studioowner offered to hire me I decided to go to university and learn something totally different (social work). I could not imagine doing my own music with the same passion after work when my ears had been concentrated for at least 8 hours a day.
Today I enjoy making music and it has a really relaxing effect on me besides my work.
Anyways I can imagine that there might be a business in doing mixdowns for new dj/producer kids. Devices like maschine and so one have lowered the level of required skill to get into production. So more and more kids get into it but still you need proper mixing (and arranging) skills to get a good track out of an idea. Eversince edm djs get celebrated like rockstars in the past, i guess there could be a market .... just a thought, I havent read any statistics

[Alume]

Though I get your decision to turn towards music I also find it interesting why you cant find any outlet in journalism.

For example. I myself choose to study industrial design when i was 18 years old, like you at the time it wasnt my greatest passion in life but i did it anyway. We were thought how to design products for mayor companies like philips and stuff. A few months back I really hit my head against the whole industrial design thing. I couldnt identify myself with the project on the faculty and the whole idea that I would work at a great agency and earn loads. Although I was quite of loving design itself and theory behind it, it was really taking time away from my true passion. Music making.
I reacently finished my bachelor and as I had a few months to spare before my master program i decided to look for a music related internship. In the past few weeks I've contacted companies like elekron, teenage engineering, but also smaller ones like Koma elektronic and Bastle. In that process of looking for internships I realized that looking for work in music wasnt to change canything on my ideals on design. Elektron for example still is a huge company, making waste, mass producing and it has one of the more conventional company structures.

The (design) fulfillment I was looking for didnt come from what i would be designing, but how, for who and most of all why.

I decided to google around on this woman that had a quite inspiring lecture, and found a few TEDtalks on design philosophy. It turned out that opposed to what we learned at school(designing for mass consumption etc etc) there are already a lot of people out there who share (and are way further!) my outtake on design. I found a few inspiring design agencies who design awesome looking products from packaging or waste, and while im waiting for the music related companies to reply im setting out in that direction as well.

I'd like to encourage who to look at what really sets you of in journalism, is it the practice or the environment that you operate in? Every discipline on the planet has an interesting element in it, you just need to reframe it. Its like the way you develop your sound over the years, you also need to develop your voice in journalism. What do you really care about in the world, why is that and how and why are you going to show this to other people? thats journalism right?! what a privileged you have to engage in such cool questions.


Get inspired, set out 1000 steps in the right direction instead of giant leaps. Try everything, make decisions, fail, stand up do it again and fail haha. No in al seriousness, you've got 80 years on the planet and your at an age now of thinking, what the hell am i going to do to make my life relevant.


And you might think that everyone has got stuff figured out, but that totally not the case. No one got shit figured out, we are just trying the best we can to pinpoint this species in the right direction for future generations(hopefully)]


Also if you want to have a chat about it, just drop me a message. It helps to talk to other people, its a totally underrated practice.

[The_G]

I have a few friends in LA who work as audio engineers. Two run a small shop that does good business in post-production sound for DVDs and Blu-Ray. That's good steady work but not very exciting. Another does live audio recording for documentaries--it's feast or famine for him, either 7 days a week working or he's off for 3 months with no income.

The most successful guy has his own studio and does remixes for people like Rianna. He's really successful and a very talented engineer. But he cut his teeth recording world music and local hip-hop. Took years of grind work to get to the level he's at now, as well as some very lucky breaks.

[Mattias]

The audio world is occasionally vastly different from other lines of work, it's closer to art related jobs rather then traditional ones.

I have many acquaintances and friends who made the major miscalculation of just assuming someone would just hire and employ them out of the blue when they were done with their studies after getting an education. The audio and music world is build on showing things you can do, be involved and build connections and relationships. And to not rely on others too much. Often it involved that you set your goal and start up your own company.

In that regard I think it's much same as it always have been. When the world shrinks it's just easier to see what everyone is doing.

[dubdub]

Hasn't the amount of audio engineer graduates that is being pumped out by places like Full Sail drastically increased in the last 10 years, tough? I'm not saying that they necesarily have an advantage but it's just the fact that all these guys also want to get an audio job and at the same time the classic studio system has shrunk immensly and more and more producers are getting 'industry' jobs since releasing music doesn't pay anymore.

[off_axis]

Finding a job as an audio engineer is apparently pretty though today, but if you want some audio related jobs where there's room, then you can look into any jobs proposed by music tech companies. E.g. Ableton, NI, Elektron, Pioneer, loudspeakers companies, etc. They need people to code, design software/UI, engineer hardware, prototype algorithms, stuff that will require you to go back to uni to study Informatics, or Electronics or something.

That's what i'm aiming for and i'm studying electronics right now.

[disparate]

Finding a job as an audio engineer is apparently pretty though today, but if you want some audio related jobs where there's room, then you can look into any jobs proposed by music tech companies. E.g. Ableton, NI, Elektron, Pioneer, loudspeakers companies, etc. They need people to code, design software/UI, engineer hardware, prototype algorithms, stuff that will require you to go back to uni to study Informatics, or Electronics or something.

That's what i'm aiming for and i'm studying electronics right now.

I did a degree that was very much aimed at this field, i.e. "proper" electronic engineering and coding for audio, rather than studio work.

I didn't end up pursuing it (basically made the decision that I was more interested in DJing and producing rather than going into this field which would involve relocating etc., and I was getting gigs etc here so didn't fancy that) and got a non-music related but local engineering job to pay the bills. Which ironically has actually involved travel and at points temporary relocation but that aside...

Hard to say if I did the right thing or not - the job can sometimes take more of my time and energy than I want for something I'm not massively passionate about although it's given me a fairly comfortable living, I do sometimes consider actually going into audio. I graduated several years ago now and my job's not that deeply technical or even related to my studies really so I imagine I'd have to renew my knowledge a bit, commit to a Masters or something. I'm kinda at that crossroads I suppose, deciding whether I could do better than my current situation

[off_axis]

Finding a job as an audio engineer is apparently pretty though today, but if you want some audio related jobs where there's room, then you can look into any jobs proposed by music tech companies. E.g. Ableton, NI, Elektron, Pioneer, loudspeakers companies, etc. They need people to code, design software/UI, engineer hardware, prototype algorithms, stuff that will require you to go back to uni to study Informatics, or Electronics or something.

That's what i'm aiming for and i'm studying electronics right now.

I did a degree that was very much aimed at this field, i.e. "proper" electronic engineering and coding for audio, rather than studio work.

That's cool, you mean your degree was focused on engineering and coding specially for audio tools?

[Sasemoi]

Hasn't the amount of audio engineer graduates that is being pumped out by places like Full Sail drastically increased in the last 10 years, tough? I'm not saying that they necesarily have an advantage but it's just the fact that all these guys also want to get an audio job and at the same time the classic studio system has shrunk immensly and more and more producers are getting 'industry' jobs since releasing music doesn't pay anymore.

This is where what Mattias said comes into play. Since audio nowadays is leaning more towards art, it comes with the same 'industry requirements' : practice, skill, talent, creativity, confidence,... A lot of these graduates go to the audio schools because today we believe that we go to school, graduate and start working. These courses usually only last for 1-2 years which isn't that long if you consider you have to learn a trade that is done by practice and practice and more practice.

Doing a part time 2-year course at SAE at the moment and I'm very glad I had quite some audio knowledge before I started, the amount of people that drop out is high because they're just guys who want to do something with their music but often don't realise the technical aspects of working in the audio field.

I've always found joy in stagehanding on festivals and recently started my own company and there's plenty of live-sound work to make a living off (as said, the best paid jobs are with conferences, business meetings, museum work) but the guys who get you these jobs all do festivals and clubs as well so it's quite a good entry point if you want to be around music. This is a field where your willingness to work and learn is very valuable, and in my opinion less degrading than running for coffee for some plump audio engineer in a studio where there's at least 10 others waiting to take your position. Feels less like working together..

As for studio work, I'd rather keep producing, building out my own production studio over the course of the years and keep improving and asking smaller artists at festivals or clubs that I meet through live sound if they need any budget engineering work done, start from there and see where it goes.

Once I'm quite comfortable doing all these 'branches' , I'll really want to see what my options are to specialise in a certain audio field, because that's what the industry really needs.

On a side note, I thought hard about this choice and did leave everything behind to live in a capital city like Amsterdam where music and events thrive. This is a big help but a big choice in your life, though no(t many) regrets so far!

[Barfunkel]

The music pros I know are all very social, outgoing types who've worked REALLY long and hard to be the best they can. And it's not just working hard on the actual music making. Plenty of people make good music as a hobby nowadays. Modern tools make it cheap and easy-ish, compared to the pre-DAW and pre youtube tutorial era. You gotta work on your social skills, your marketing, organize parties, get involved in the club scene, start a label, learn auxiliary skills (I have a friend who designs and builds acoustic treatments for example) that augment the income, be willing to take an odd, crappy job here and there to help you pay the bills etc etc.

[disparate]

Hasn't the amount of audio engineer graduates that is being pumped out by places like Full Sail drastically increased in the last 10 years, tough? I'm not saying that they necesarily have an advantage but it's just the fact that all these guys also want to get an audio job and at the same time the classic studio system has shrunk immensly and more and more producers are getting 'industry' jobs since releasing music doesn't pay anymore.

This is where what Mattias said comes into play. Since audio nowadays is leaning more towards art, it comes with the same 'industry requirements' : practice, skill, talent, creativity, confidence,... A lot of these graduates go to the audio schools because today we believe that we go to school, graduate and start working. These courses usually only last for 1-2 years which isn't that long if you consider you have to learn a trade that is done by practice and practice and more practice.

Yeah that's what I've always felt - I'm sure one can benefit a lot from a well taught course in terms of improving their skills and maybe getting a few contacts, but it's not the foot in the door compared to good old hustle. So in other words similar to DJing, producing, etc. really!

That's cool, you mean your degree was focused on engineering and coding specially for audio tools?

Basically yeah, a joint electronic engineering and music degree with the intention of equipping people to apply these skills to audio. There were a few modules specifically for this concentration (e.g. audio programming, audio-visual processing) although more just a bunch of classes from each of the two departments so for example I did some straight music modules too as well as say engineering maths classes.

[off_axis]

That's cool, you mean your degree was focused on engineering and coding specially for audio tools?

Basically yeah, a joint electronic engineering and music degree with the intention of equipping people to apply these skills to audio. There were a few modules specifically for this concentration (e.g. audio programming, audio-visual processing) although more just a bunch of classes from each of the two departments so for example I did some straight music modules too as well as say engineering maths classes.

Ha, that's amazing, where was it/what was the name of the course?
We are lucky to have kinda the same thing here - except it's a blend of DSP, acoustics, informatics and electronic focused on audio, and it's only a specialization in the last year of a master - that's what i've planned to do after i graduate.

[gedda]

I would look into video editing too, you can apply audio skills to that. The thing is it seems like a tough industry, too.

[Mattias]

Definitely, most work can be found in sound editing and or jingle / sfx making no doubt.

[CRDM]

I've been away for a while so will have to have a proper read through these replies and post back when I get some time, thanks for all the detailed responses!