Elektrons in the studio

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WOLF!
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by WOLF! »

I really like hardware but automation wise it's hard to beat software.
I do hear a lot of people have the same problems.
I just record the audio and work with that but I'm still searching for a way to use my hardware better (or even make hardware only tracks).
Also the sync between Ableton and external stuff makes me go nuts. Gonna buy a Usamo or ERM multiclock once when I have the budget for it.

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Barfunkel
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by Barfunkel »

WOLF! wrote:I really like hardware but automation wise it's hard to beat software.
I do hear a lot of people have the same problems.
At least to me the point of hardware is that you don't NEED automation. If you want a filter sweep you turn the filter knob, if you want to increase the delay feedback you turn the relevant knob in your delay pedal and so on.

So it's really difficult for me to see it as a problem. That's just the way it works. Trying to force an ITB workflow to an OTB setup just leads to a headache and also vice versa. IMO, it's usually a wise idea to use whatever equipment or software you use for things that they do well, instead of trying to fight their nature.
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Lost to the Void
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by Lost to the Void »

Barfunkel wrote:
WOLF! wrote:I really like hardware but automation wise it's hard to beat software.
I do hear a lot of people have the same problems.
At least to me the point of hardware is that you don't NEED automation. If you want a filter sweep you turn the filter knob, if you want to increase the delay feedback you turn the relevant knob in your delay pedal and so on.

So it's really difficult for me to see it as a problem. That's just the way it works. Trying to force an ITB workflow to an OTB setup just leads to a headache and also vice versa. IMO, it's usually a wise idea to use whatever equipment or software you use for things that they do well, instead of trying to fight their nature.

Fine if you are doing simple ass 1 synth techno.
But if you are changing parameters on a number of synths, too many to do with 1 pair of hands) you need to do midi automation, or record multiple passes (that's how I used to do it back in the day, smpte time code on the reel to reel, record a track at a time) and midi can be problematic, it certainly is a fiddle, and multitasking recording in multiple passes is so tiresome.
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Barfunkel
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by Barfunkel »

I dunno, how many techno tracks have so much simultaneous automation, automation that is absolutely necessary for the track to work that one person couldn't handle it?

For example, this one, one of the biggest techno hits the last 2 years, like it or not:

youtu.be/pvEdwl88J2U

No idea how it was produced, ITB, OTB or hybrid, but I don't hear anything in there, automation-wise, that one man (or a woman) with 2 hands wouldn't be able to accomplish, were it played live with hardware. There's also stuff on modern hardware like Elektron's parameter locks that help.

Very simple techno track, has 2 million Youtube views as we speak. I would be EXTREMELY happy if one of my tracks had 2 million views. You might not be happy with such numbers, with your recent move to a wider audience via heavy metal, but I bet most people on Subsekt would love 2 million views.

The point being, super complex automation is not needed for a techno hit. Some might want it, might like it and do it, but it's definitely not needed as such, for techno.
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

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have you ever tried a Cirklon?

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Re: Elektrons in the studio

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Barfunkel wrote:I dunno, how many techno tracks have so much simultaneous automation, automation that is absolutely necessary for the track to work that one person couldn't handle it?

For example, this one, one of the biggest techno hits the last 2 years, like it or not:

youtu.be/pvEdwl88J2U

No idea how it was produced, ITB, OTB or hybrid, but I don't hear anything in there, automation-wise, that one man (or a woman) with 2 hands wouldn't be able to accomplish, were it played live with hardware. There's also stuff on modern hardware like Elektron's parameter locks that help.

Very simple techno track, has 2 million Youtube views as we speak. I would be EXTREMELY happy if one of my tracks had 2 million views. You might not be happy with such numbers, with your recent move to a wider audience via heavy metal, but I bet most people on Subsekt would love 2 million views.

The point being, super complex automation is not needed for a techno hit. Some might want it, might like it and do it, but it's definitely not needed as such, for techno.

What does need have to do with anything? , what a stupid argument. Making tunes is about want, not need. Who gives a fuck how many views some shit ass moronic track has had?
What does making a techno hit have to do with anything?
Jesus what a horrible way of looking at art.

Sure you don't need to automate shit.
I mean to make a hit techno record you don't even Need to make techno, you can just pay a ghost producer.
You don't Need to make techno at all, there are enough already, and when you look at the entire genre and its history, the ideas are severely regurgitative, so you could just go feed the ducks instead.


If I want to fade tracks in and out whilst controlling cutoff on one sound, envelope release on another, maybe dub mix some delays and reverbs, and finally open the pulse width on a lead sound and ride the feedback/regen on a delay, it would require multiple passes in hardware (tedious) if done by hand, or midi automation or another pair of hands.

Incidentally...
Industrial doom metal has a smaller audience than Techno. Techno is commercial as fuck.
Unlikely to find anywhere near 2 million hits on an industrial doom track. There are only about 10 recording artists even doing industrial doom.
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

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WOLF! wrote:I really like hardware but automation wise it's hard to beat software.
I do hear a lot of people have the same problems.
I just record the audio and work with that but I'm still searching for a way to use my hardware better (or even make hardware only tracks).
Also the sync between Ableton and external stuff makes me go nuts. Gonna buy a Usamo or ERM multiclock once when I have the budget for it.
that's why i don't touch my machinedrum a lot these days, beside the fact that it lacks some internal functions that are necessary for me to program a convincing drum pattern (e.g. ADSR, delaying certain tracks slightly, accent to parameter), it's a major pain to cut every single drum hit and its variation into an ableton drum rack.

i would gladly pay for a program that does that automatically.

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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by kirkwoodwest »

Just got a Rytm the other day. I am quite in love with it for my sound. Its mad simple/complex and sounds wonderful. The only thing I do wish loading samples on it was much easier as I'm on PC and don't have SDS Drop.

I also like my octatrack. I used to really love/hate this thing but spending more and more time with it I think it is quite a cool music machine. Getting samples on it takes some work. I have octaedit and it is cool but to be honest I havn't dug super deep into it.

I also have everything connected so the octatrack does the midi sequencing on my hardware and then i have a keyboard connected so I can play right in. I am having a blast sequencing this way and doing polyrythms is super easy on these sequencers.

I'm forcing myself to play everything in as much as possible. The result of this is really strange as it really makes the music writing process happen really fast.


I quite agree with barfunkel that doing music on the computer is the most obvious choice now. This is why its important to turn around and question it, rebel and do the other thing.
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

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kirkwoodwest wrote:
I quite agree with barfunkel that doing music on the computer is the most obvious choice now. This is why its important to turn around and question it, rebel and do the other thing.

Haha this is so funny to read. I remember around 98-2000 going to see shows when playing live from a laptop was really something considered cutting edge and new. The amount of people saying 'a laptop is not an instrument' etc etc
Now people are talking about rebelling against the computer as it is the obvious choice. The other thing was a computer not so long ago.

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Re: Elektrons in the studio

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Everyone is buying hardware now, it`s not a rebellion, it`s a sales frenzy
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by buffered »

i'd agree. marketing is a big driver of this.

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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by CubiK Mass »

Lost to the Void wrote:Everyone is buying hardware now, it`s not a rebellion, it`s a sales frenzy
It's because so many use cracked software, the industry is pushing towards hands on outboard music making any chance they can get.

I've got 2k burning a hole in my pocket, I keep swinging towards buying some boxes, then read comments in threads like this and decide I may just be wasting my money if I do, might just update my push and get a system 1m to tweak the rolando vst's so I can learn more synthesis with a more taylored hands on approach, think I'll get more benefit from that.

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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by WOLF! »

Last night I was out with friends on a diner. Had a great evening with nice food and wine. We went back from it and got into my studio and did a 10 minutes jam. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't had so much fun if we both were staring at my computer's screen... .

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Re: Elektrons in the studio

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CubiK Mass wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Everyone is buying hardware now, it`s not a rebellion, it`s a sales frenzy
It's because so many use cracked software, the industry is pushing towards hands on outboard music making any chance they can get.

I've got 2k burning a hole in my pocket, I keep swinging towards buying some boxes, then read comments in threads like this and decide I may just be wasting my money if I do, might just update my push and get a system 1m to tweak the rolando vst's so I can learn more synthesis with a more taylored hands on approach, think I'll get more benefit from that.

Yeah.
I think my problem ones that I used to work in an all analog studio in the 90's. It was slavishly analog. And the various bands I was in recorded there, and we built our own studio.
Eventually as we parted ways, I sold a shit ton of my gear to buy in to a soundsystem and put on illegal raves.
I maintained a small hobby hardware setup (comparable to your average techno hardware setup these days).
And when the software revolution happened I got in early (early enough to remember the first vst synths like Neon and Mercury 1) as it developed my skills grew and I stopped using my hardware.
Eventually it got to where we are now where the complexity and capability allows you unlimited creative potential, you just need an idea and you can make it happen.
To get the equivalent setup in hardware would require an enormous room and the cost of a small house in gear to replicate. And it is still a hassle. Midi is a terrible system and hasn't progressed, it's still midi v1.0

Now software is harder to use if you take the throw shit at a wall approach and press buttons until something interesting happens. But if the ideas are formed, you just can't beat the usability and instantaneous results of software.

So even though I have been expanding my hardware setup again, mainly for live use, I still feel slowed down by the whole process. And complex tasks become actual Tasks to execute.

But.
Buttons and lights look cool.

Weirdly I have no issue with playing my guitars and other physical instruments. But then you are the generator that makes the sound. You can't really compare sequencing on a drum machine to playing in the drums. Hardward Synths and sequencers etc will never get the same experience as real Instruments, in terms of that symbiosis you are always one step removed.

Of course it all comes down to taste at the end of the day. None of this matters, we are just shooting the shit.

But I laugh a little when people complain about screens and computers by writing on a screen with a computer that has so far been the most symbiotic man-machine interface and then in the same breath raving about the new iPhone etc
It's just become a meme to say, like "real djs play vinyl". Staring at a screen is the same as staring at a synth (that itself probably has a shitty little screen anyway) both are a toy box of electronics with flashy lights that let you make noises and are used at roughly arms length.

I think there is a happy land of milk and honey between the 2 worlds but I am struggling to find it at the moment. Stuff like overbridge is great but it seems to defeat the point.

I'm really lost at the moment.

The last time I got caught in this dilemma I ended up making a fucking Doom metal record.
What is going to happen this time? Country and western?
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

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RYTM & Analog 4 (Moog Mother 32 goes into A 4 as well) individiual channels streamed via Overbridge into Ableton. I then record a session, piuck out interestin sections an then mangle around with effects and shit. It's fun...
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Re: Elektrons in the studio

Post by WOLF! »

Barfunkel wrote:For example, this one, one of the biggest techno hits the last 2 years, like it or not:

youtu.be/pvEdwl88J2U
Maybe people call that a hit but for me it's just a piece of shit!
Lost to the Void wrote:Fine if you are doing simple ass 1 synth techno.
But if you are changing parameters on a number of synths, too many to do with 1 pair of hands) you need to do midi automation, or record multiple passes (that's how I used to do it back in the day, smpte time code on the reel to reel, record a track at a time) and midi can be problematic, it certainly is a fiddle, and multitasking recording in multiple passes is so tiresome.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
A nice workaround for this is to use an vst-editor (if it's excising for that synth) to quickly assign automation to hardware synths.
I use this for my DSI Evolver as that thing doesn't support standard control changes.


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