Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
- helloitsmeagain
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Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
Anyone know the answer?
I understand it relates, at least originally, to the placement of mics. At a distance apart, 2 mics would be used to ensure a stereo sound in a recording.
How does this relate to production in a genre such as Techno? I'd be happy with someone just being able to just point me to the right page i need to read in my encyclopedia...
I understand it relates, at least originally, to the placement of mics. At a distance apart, 2 mics would be used to ensure a stereo sound in a recording.
How does this relate to production in a genre such as Techno? I'd be happy with someone just being able to just point me to the right page i need to read in my encyclopedia...
Because of ACiD, i now know that butter is way better than margarine. I saw through the bullshit. - Mitch Hedberg
- Lost to the Void
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
The theory behind mid/side mic technique is exactly the same when applied in any other way in that it is treating a stereo signal in a mono compatible way.
In production you use a mid/side matrix that separates or processes the side (stereo only) of a signal in isolation of the mid (mono or centre).
I use mid/side a lot in mastering, as I can remove the low frequencies from the side signals, and then widen the mix without worrying about mono compatability with soundsystems, I can also then sidechain the side to the low end of the mid, allowing the mix to pump without it being too obvious.
Mid/side has many other applications in mastering and is useful for EQing problem areas.
In production terms it can be very handy for increasing stereo without introducing phase problems, and creating further separation in a mix by not only EQing sounds up-and-down (high to low frequencies) but also left to right, allowing you to create more room in the mix.
It is pretty advanced stuff but once you get used to it, it really allows you to make lush, big mixes with space.
(some) Ableton users may not know that abelton employs mid/side technology.
The utility effect contains a stereo rotary. This works as a mid/side fader and merely changes the relationship between mono and stereo, thus being a mono compatible stereo expander!
Also EQ8 can operate in stereo linked, L/R and Mid/Side mode, which is incredibly incredibly useful (providing you have the chops to get into Mid/Side).
Thanks ableton!!
In production you use a mid/side matrix that separates or processes the side (stereo only) of a signal in isolation of the mid (mono or centre).
I use mid/side a lot in mastering, as I can remove the low frequencies from the side signals, and then widen the mix without worrying about mono compatability with soundsystems, I can also then sidechain the side to the low end of the mid, allowing the mix to pump without it being too obvious.
Mid/side has many other applications in mastering and is useful for EQing problem areas.
In production terms it can be very handy for increasing stereo without introducing phase problems, and creating further separation in a mix by not only EQing sounds up-and-down (high to low frequencies) but also left to right, allowing you to create more room in the mix.
It is pretty advanced stuff but once you get used to it, it really allows you to make lush, big mixes with space.
(some) Ableton users may not know that abelton employs mid/side technology.
The utility effect contains a stereo rotary. This works as a mid/side fader and merely changes the relationship between mono and stereo, thus being a mono compatible stereo expander!
Also EQ8 can operate in stereo linked, L/R and Mid/Side mode, which is incredibly incredibly useful (providing you have the chops to get into Mid/Side).
Thanks ableton!!
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
schweet. thanks for that, it helped a lot.
Because of ACiD, i now know that butter is way better than margarine. I saw through the bullshit. - Mitch Hedberg
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
I use m/s quite a lot. You can create some amazing racks in Ableton using two chains, each with an EQ8 at the start, one dealing with mid and one side. I often then cut some bass from the sides and throw some spacial effects on it while leaving the mid a little more dry.
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
This is how I usually explain it.. (Thanks to Steve)
STEmonoREO
STE_ _ _ _ REO
_ _ _ mono _ _ _
STEmonoREO
STE_ _ _ _ REO
_ _ _ mono _ _ _
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- helloitsmeagain
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
so, here's what i tried after reading this... bear with me.
I place an audio effect rack down on a stem.
A dropped a multiband dynamics on it, and killed everything above 300.
Then a slapped a utility after that and made it mono.
Then i duplicated that and killed the utility. also i reverse the band. now everything below 300 is off.
This is all done in an effort to make sure the bottom end doesn't move around too much.
next to the multiband dynamics for everything above 300, i drop another audio effect rack. I followed bram2000 and set up a mid and side inside.
My multiband doesn't get rid of it everything below 300 so kill the freq below 100 on the mid.
on the side, i drop some spatial fx. gave it a spin with auto filter and ping, pong's cousin.
Sounds so sweet, i peed my pants. You guys rock, i love this board.
I place an audio effect rack down on a stem.
A dropped a multiband dynamics on it, and killed everything above 300.
Then a slapped a utility after that and made it mono.
Then i duplicated that and killed the utility. also i reverse the band. now everything below 300 is off.
This is all done in an effort to make sure the bottom end doesn't move around too much.
next to the multiband dynamics for everything above 300, i drop another audio effect rack. I followed bram2000 and set up a mid and side inside.
My multiband doesn't get rid of it everything below 300 so kill the freq below 100 on the mid.
on the side, i drop some spatial fx. gave it a spin with auto filter and ping, pong's cousin.
Sounds so sweet, i peed my pants. You guys rock, i love this board.
Because of ACiD, i now know that butter is way better than margarine. I saw through the bullshit. - Mitch Hedberg
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
nice read. thanks for the input.
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
Found this easy way to make M/s Decoder. now you can check your sides better than Abletons own rack . which dose not work to will.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar11/a ... h-0311.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar11/a ... h-0311.htm
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
Visually it lookslike1 two many dashes inthere mate sounds cool thoICN wrote:This is how I usually explain it.. (Thanks to Steve)
STEmonoREO
STE_ _ _ _ REO
_ _ _ mono _ _ _
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
Never really got the mid side thing. I think I need to be shown in real person
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Lost to the Void wrote:Fuck off, get some tequila down ya neck and make some noise you cunt....
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
Yeah it has to do with the combination of a mic with a cardioid polar pattern and a figure of 8 one.
The cardioid mic takes care of center drop issues.
The cardioid mic takes care of center drop issues.
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
george cross wrote:http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar11/a ... h-0311.htm
Good link. Thanks.
- Lost to the Void
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
It's really simple, what you are doing separating the stereo only part of the signal, from the mono only part.
Stereo imaging is all about phase difference with a signal.
What this means impractical terms, for example using the Ableton Eq8 in mid/side mode, is...
Lets say you have a big, fuck off pad, which a high note count chord, a real thick sound, loads of stereo.
Now your mix is lacking punch and clarity in the drums once the pad comes in, but you don't want to have to too sliced up in the low mids and lows, you want to have just this one massive chord pad and big drums, proper warehouse vibe.
So what you can do is use your eq8 on mid/side, put it over the pad, go to the mid(mono) section and Eq out the lows, reduce the overall mid level as well, and maybe take a little top end out to give the hats room.
Then take just a a little of the real lows off the side, and there you have it,mother drums can sit all big and nasty in the mono, and the pad sits either side, with good low mid presence,mwithout conflicting with the low (hopefully mono) end bass and kicks.
Stereo imaging is all about phase difference with a signal.
What this means impractical terms, for example using the Ableton Eq8 in mid/side mode, is...
Lets say you have a big, fuck off pad, which a high note count chord, a real thick sound, loads of stereo.
Now your mix is lacking punch and clarity in the drums once the pad comes in, but you don't want to have to too sliced up in the low mids and lows, you want to have just this one massive chord pad and big drums, proper warehouse vibe.
So what you can do is use your eq8 on mid/side, put it over the pad, go to the mid(mono) section and Eq out the lows, reduce the overall mid level as well, and maybe take a little top end out to give the hats room.
Then take just a a little of the real lows off the side, and there you have it,mother drums can sit all big and nasty in the mono, and the pad sits either side, with good low mid presence,mwithout conflicting with the low (hopefully mono) end bass and kicks.
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
It's a miking technique though, are you guys talking about some sort of processing?
First thing that comes to my mind when someone says mid-side, is the polar patterns.
First thing that comes to my mind when someone says mid-side, is the polar patterns.
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
It was just mic technique a long time ago yes. The technique is still based on phase reverse separation but has far wider applications these days.AxeD wrote:It's a miking technique though, are you guys talking about some sort of processing?
First thing that comes to my mind when someone says mid-side, is the polar patterns.
Now you have mid side matrixes, compressors, EQs, mid side mastering limiters. I think the old Fairchild compressor was one of the first to be able to operate in mid side mode.
It is used in mastering and production, and as I think I have already mentioned, Ableton uses two mid side plugins.
The utility plugin has a stereo control that works as a mid side matrix, in that the stereo control simply changes the gain difference between mid and side, rather than using micro delay to produce fake stereo.
Also the EQ8 has mid/side mode, as well as L/R
I use mid side quite a lot in mastering by side chaining the side signal to the mid signal for some natural dynamic movement in an audio master. It is also handy for vinyl cutting to take the low end out of the side signal to help the needle.
brainworx are right at the forefront of mid/side plugin tech, but more are getting in on the game.
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
This is really cool and very well explained, never knew about M/S mode... nice!Lost to the Void wrote: So what you can do is use your eq8 on mid/side, put it over the pad, go to the mid(mono) section and Eq out the lows, reduce the overall mid level as well, and maybe take a little top end out to give the hats room.
Then take just a a little of the real lows off the side, and there you have it,mother drums can sit all big and nasty in the mono, and the pad sits either side, with good low mid presence,mwithout conflicting with the low (hopefully mono) end bass and kicks.
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
Shit, I wish I had read this before submitting that competition entry Definitely would have won then, dead certSo what you can do is use your eq8 on mid/side, put it over the pad, go to the mid(mono) section and Eq out the lows, reduce the overall mid level as well, and maybe take a little top end out to give the hats room......
Thanks for the advice Steve, mm gonna go and build some m/s chops.
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
There are some great m/s decoder and encoder analogue diy kits out there too. They aren't too hard to build either. If you like it in the digital plugin domain you should hear it with some tasty hardware comps and eq
Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
Download BX Solo its free and gives a simple way of understanding what M/S does.
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Re: Mid-Side. What the hell is it?
i use the l/r in eq8 in sampling too.
if you look at the wave of the sample clip and its not symmetrical then you can use the left / right to split it and make use of the sample differently than if it was a straight ahead stereo clip
i handnt thought of it in terms of the mastering type aspect. sounds class must try it out.
god i need to find a way to get paid for doing ableton all day. ill do it 24/7 if i have to
if you look at the wave of the sample clip and its not symmetrical then you can use the left / right to split it and make use of the sample differently than if it was a straight ahead stereo clip
i handnt thought of it in terms of the mastering type aspect. sounds class must try it out.
god i need to find a way to get paid for doing ableton all day. ill do it 24/7 if i have to