Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

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Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by rktic »

Hi there,

I'd like you to watch this talk, share your opinion, discuss the matter of Millenials, entitlement (to make music), dealing with frustration, laziness etcpp.

Think it correlates with a growing number of requests around here. Revolving around finding fast fixes for issues - templates and fast fixes over deeply understanding something. I don't want to point my finger at anyone. I'd love to understand if my theory of issues with climbing deeply into a topic (which I addressed in many threads already) is valid or bogus.

youtu.be/hER0Qp6QJNU

If you feel like that video hits some of your sweet spots - how can I/we help?

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by dubdub »

Sorry, I couldn't make it past the insufferable business mumbo-jumbo on the bottom.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by rktic »

Guess that's a statement in itself as well.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by dubdub »

Okay, I did watch a bit. It's what I expected.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by rktic »

My hypothesis is "certain people don't go down rabbit holes any more for whatever reason" - you surely wanna put a label on that and be done? My intention is exploration - not bashing.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by dubdub »

Well, given that this forum seems to be largely middle-aged people, i'm not sure what kind of discussion you are expecting expect for complainign about dem lazy kids. The problem of your hypothesis is that you are looking at a specific group of people, the guys trying to become Beatport Bumcode or Edgy Dark Berghain techno stars. But that's just a result of techno being more popular and accessible than ever and is part of a culture that the old techno guys (think off all the lazy tech house / bigroom sellouts...) themselves created. At the same time, digging culture and arcane hardware are bigger among young people than ever. If you look at the whole new minimal scene, there are legions of kids that spent all of their time raiding Discogs for obscure old records and buying and learning old machines. Which are "rabbit holes" that are, ironically, much more about consumption (records/hardware) than a lazy kid making generic Bumload techno with nothing but a Youtube playlist and laptop with a cracked DAW. If you want to see people that are more obsessed with consumption than making music, go visit the middle aged people on Gearslutz and Muffwiggler that seem to spent 90% of their music time and creative energy on getting the perfect setup, perpetual GAS and weird commidity fetishism rather than actually channeling any kind of creativity into making music.

Your hypothesis is fine, although it seems redudant to me. I just can't handle all the neoliberal ideology in that video, i'm subjected to that enough involuntarily, no need to subject myself to that voluntarily.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by rktic »

dubdub wrote:Well, given that this forum seems to be largely middle-aged people, i'm not sure what kind of discussion you are expecting expect for complainign about dem lazy kids.
The group of folks who this may (and I say may) apply to goes up to 35-ish as well. And I'm not interested in complaining. I notice a pattern people struggle and get frustrated with. Which is learning, having the bar raised too high for themselves etc.
dubdub wrote:The problem of your hypothesis is that you are looking at a specific group of people, the guys trying to become Beatport Bumcode techno stars.
Nope. I started thinking about this due to a certain kind of "gimme a fast fix"-mentality I find growing around here as well with time. "Give me a template, what plugin gives me that sound etc."
dubdub wrote:At the same time, digging culture and arcane hardware are bigger among young people than ever. If you look at the whole new minimal scene, there are legions of kids that spent all of their time raiding Discogs for obscure old records and buying and learning old machines. Which are "rabbit holes" that are, ironically, much more about consumption (records/hardware) than a lazy kid making generic Bumload techno with nothing but a Youtube playlist and laptop with a cracked DAW.
That's the fast-fix-mentality I'm talking about.
dubdub wrote:If you want to see people that are more obsessed with consumption than making music, go visit the middle aged people on Gearslutz and Muffwiggler that seem to spent 90% of their music time and creative energy on getting the perfect setup, perpetual GAS and weird commidity fetishism rather than actually channeling any kind of creativity into making music.
Not what I'm after either. My goal is enabling somebody to push his/hers limits and get their shit done. Which isn't providing presets or templates but making knowledge accessible. That's a timeconsuming thing to do. Look at Steve and the lengths he goes to just do that. And which is often neglected by not following the prothestic "knowledge" offered by YT and so on. The stubborn arguments hold against experience regularly makes my toe nails crawl up.

Think it's more than reasonable to wonder: where does that come from?
dubdub wrote:Your hypothesis is fine, although it seems redudant to me. I just can't handle all the neoliberal ideology in that video, i'm subjected to that enough involuntarily, no need to subject myself to that voluntarily.
I know what you mean. What strikes me about it is that it kind of connects some dots for me. Got a counter-hypothesis? Feel free to share!

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by victer »

I watched this and the least I can say is that I really have mixed feelings about it.
The hole "millenial" topic really makes me uncomfortable because as a 23 year old dude I always feel targeted but at the same time I don't rely on this at all.
Besides I know I'm no excpetion. 'Millenial' just seem to be a broad and stupid category to put young people in, like as we're all young millenials and we are all the same, social media addicted, attention seeking teen scumbags... Really, talking about millenials, as if all young western people were the same, is somehow quite totalitarian and unfair.

To be honest the only part I agree with on this video is the "change the corporate world" part. Only my interpretation of this idea is rather "burn it down to the ground".

Now regarding this in music production and wanting to be at the top instantly I think is more down to case by case ego issue and also the idea that everybody can have its time of glory, but i feel these are rather timeless issues.
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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by dubdub »

Where does the "fix it fast" attitude come from? I'm just rambling here but I think it's just an extension of celebrity culture. I'm sure many kids in the 90s wanted to become techno stars but they couldn't afford hardware. Or they couldn't afford a fast enough computer in the 2000s and couldn't figure out the cryptic software. The entry point has gotten low enough that you get lots of people now that would been held off by the entry point. The reason why they don't want to put in effort is because that's the whole point of celebrity culture, you arbitrarely become famous. I don't even blame people for trying, it's basically a modern day salvation myth. For most people, their work does very little to fullfill their essence, their "true" potential. The salvation through fame and rescue out of labour slavery has to come by doing as little as possible, nothing ideally, so it doesn't become work again. Of course, it never works for 99% of people but like I said, I think it's a myth that people keep telling themselves because it's the only hope they have at "authentic" living, which is of course just a delusion in the end. I think that's why do-nothing celebs like Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian and for electronic more specifically, David Guetta, SHM etc. are so popular, they keep up that illusion of "hey, that should be me!".

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by terryfalafel »

Some interesting points in there but it's mainly a mixture of obvious stuff and gross generalisations.

He seems to be suggesting that millennials are the first generation where more than an insignificant minority are depressed, have low self esteem, have an inflated sense of entitlement. That's clearly not true at all.

I can't be arsed to type out a full essay on my phone cos there's loads to comment on, but one thing that struck me as interesting is that in every point about achieving self worth, enjoyment of life and general feelings of self-satisfaction, he mentioned job or career before relationships, or life outside work. As if somehow the overarching goal is to become happy through work. Well, that's the Puritan work ethic - and it might bring short or medium term satisfaction to the worker bees who sit stuck in traffic morning and night missing seeing their children grow up, but I'm not sure how many people look back on their lives when they're old and decrepit thinking about how pleased they are that their spreadsheets were always up to date when they missed all their kids' school nativity plays.

Overconsumption, consumerism, self interest - these are all qualities driven by and demanded by the neoliberal machine which pushes forward modern life in a lot of the western world. Underpinning it all is the notion that the harder you work, the more often you can update your huge flatscreen TV or buy a new car. Which is fundamentally doomed to failure, cos anyone who's honest with themselves knows that acquiring 'stuff' doesn't make you happy - happy in the soul-nourishing, life enriching kind of way. And while the worker bees grind themselves into the ground, hankering after the latest shiny trinket which they know deep down won't quite scratch that itch, the upper echelons sit back and count the cash.

It takes most people a lifetime to realise this ^^^ if they ever realise it at all.

And if children were taught in schools that family comes first, then friends, then hobbies, then work, the whole thing would crumble in a generation and I daresay we wouldn't be discussing increasing suicide rates among the young in 25 years time. But that's not in the best interests of anyone who wants to keep the neoliberal machine chugging along.

Regarding technology making people feel more entitled to learn new skills without expending much energy or 'paying their dues'? Well, yes - of course it is. Not to be dismissive of the original question but this is a glaringly obvious consequence of technological development. To imagine that people are willing to take the difficult path of effort and time when they're offered a quicker alternative is like suggesting that people should take their clothes down to the river if they want to wash them properly instead of using a washing machine.

I know on the whole we're proud of the effort we have made in learning and developing our skills in this forum, and rightly so. But to have the expectation that everyone wants to do it the same way is surely naive.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by rktic »

Hey @victer,

my intention isn't being a judgemental prick. My idea, based upon indicators I witness here every day, is a different one.

Assuming that culture changed and with it the way people are growing up. And it disables those risen within it to stick to their goals - what, in a music production related context, is necessary to enable them?



@dub dub

I think you nailed part of the issue right there.


@terryfalafel

Well, thank you for actually writing that essay :) Yes, I think there are truly a lot of things longing to be discussed. And that was actually my point. Which is far from written in stone. I'm asking questions.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by terryfalafel »

rktic wrote:.


@terryfalafel

Well, thank you for actually writing that essay :)
Haha, that wasn't an essay! I'm not generally known for my conciseness when answering interesting questions like this ;-)

Will provide more thoughts when at a proper computer.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by victer »

rktic wrote:Hey @victer,

my intention isn't being a judgemental prick. My idea, based upon indicators I witness here every day, is a different one.

Assuming that culture changed and with it the way people are growing up. And it disables those risen within it to stick to their goals - what, in a music production related context, is necessary to enable them?
Ah sorry if I came across as aggressive, thers no harm in pointing out issues if they bother you. I was more reffering to the use of the term millenial in general as a flawed concept (at least in my opinion).
I think setting goals for yourself is really difficult because incentives given by society point you in a very particular direction for what you should wish for, mainly consumerism and the 'empty' self-gratification that is attached to it. On the other hand, going agianst the flow is also difficult and requires a lot of sacrifices that many aren't willing to take.
In the end it comes down to the way our society produces individuals and how those individuals think about themselves and set their goals. there is some sort of tension between what one wants and what is expected of him, A sort of idealism vs. realism kind of deal.
If I had to translate that tension to a music production context I'd say many are torn apart between the will to make music for the sake of it (and consequently, being conscious of the necessity to put in the hours) and the need to succeed professionaly and financially that everybody is subjected to at some point because it is imposed upon us, wich pressures us to have immediate results.

I think Terry nailed the point with his short essay, but there are many more things to say. Interesting topic, I look forward to hear everyone's opinion :)
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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by Lost to the Void »

Whilst there is a generational "thing" with millennials, like any generation, I think part of what we are talking about here comes from our increasingly technological society.
And whilst it is more prevalent in the generation that knew no life before innernets and unsmartphones, you conservation it outside the yoot.

I encounter it mostly from millennials but also mine and younger generations.
Definitely there seem to be more demanding requests.
Despite being a spiky fucker I seem to have become generally known for giving out production advice and get hit up on social media with lots of hello, can I ask you how to.... And then a string of questions, from people I don't know at all. The questions are always specifics rather than techniques. How can I do this specific bass sound and bassline and kick drum and .... How do I make this whole track exactly like Brayer or Pfarter or whoever.

My biggest annoyance comes from young techno producers and their labels hitting me up for mastering work and expecting it done and back the next day because they have to get the promoz up in a couple of days and the release is out next week.
When I tell them that I have a booking schedule and they have to wait a couple of weeks, or even just a week sometimes they are :shock:
Even worse when I get back to them with mix fix suggestions.
"What do you mean it's not ready to be mastered, the last guy I used charged 5 euro a track and had it back to me the same afternoon and he said the mixes were fine"......

Maybe they think I can just throw it through Ozone and some Multiband and send it straight back.


So yeah.
It's it definitely a generational thing mostly.
Rome is essentially about to fall.
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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by terryfalafel »

Lost to the Void wrote:.
So yeah.
It's it definitely a generational thing mostly.
Rome is essentially about to fall.
But here's the thing. I'm pretty sure there were arrogant, entitled know it alls in all previous generations. The difference now is that 50 of them a day can contact you on Facebook whereas previously it was considerably harder for them to write a message that you would read. Post? Fax? Even phone? As inconvenient as these methods of communication were compared to today, they sorted the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

I appreciate that perhaps people also wouldn't be so cheeky / cunty if they were on the phone compared to writing an fb post, but perhaps what gives the feeling that there are orders of magnitude more of these people than there were before is just how easy it is for them to make themselves known?

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by Alume »

I agree with terry. With all of you, though i believe that its mainly the vast communication network that shows you all these other angles about people and their behaviours. Its a soup of cultures, beliefs and other demographics that spins us in all sorts of ditections.

Besides that its the tales of shortcomings that are spoken off and discussed the most, this results in more exposure for these matters which in its turn lets us believe thats those matters are the modern standards or newest developments. Im not ignoring any facts but we must keep a clear mind when it comes to these statements.

What im trying to say is that its quite black and white too. Today we are diagnosed with depression and other disorders while a few years ago you simple had tonfijd your drive. We want everything to be perfect, perfect kick, perfect wife, perfect this perfect that. While in things simply dont unfold like that, if you want the perfect this you might need to sacrifice for your perfect that.


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Sorry on my phone as well so its a bit uncoherent
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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by Lost to the Void »

I don't consider them to be arrogant or even know it alls, at least not in general with the people I deal with, it's rarely annoying in that kind of way. Maybe informal might be a general better term for the conduct, but I'm mostly ok with that. My email conversations with clients tend to be quite conversational, I am a weirdo and I don't censor my weird even in professional conversation.

It is mostly ignorance and\or bad information that I deal with.
Both are a consequence of the world of technology and education.

So of course technology is a part of it, but technology is a part of as well as a product of society.

There's something to be said for the way we are externalising our consciousness in all of this, via technology.

Knowledge is being supplanted by having instant access to answers without needing to know them. "Google it".
So in some ways we are externalising our knowledge by storing it on computers instead of in our heads. But we are also externalising our tendrils of communication as well as other parts of "self". Very interesting time to be alive and witness this as the new generations are born in to it.
That's a whole other conversation.

So I'm not so sure you can say "those people always existed". I think it's more symbiotic\interactive. The technology facilitates, encourages as well as creates these behaviours, and also in return can then be designed almost to serve them.

I think these type of behaviours are more prevalent in the younger and less experienced anyway, but the technology enhances it.
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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by winston »

Zizek is a character who you would see at an after-party and would entrance you in his soliloquies
dubdub wrote: If you want to see people that are more obsessed with consumption than making music, go visit the middle aged people on Gearslutz and Muffwiggler that seem to spent 90% of their music time and creative energy on getting the perfect setup, perpetual GAS and weird commidity fetishism rather than actually channeling any kind of creativity into making music.
i was reading about commodity festishism yesterday:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Society_of_the_Spectacle wrote: The Society of the Spectacle is a critique of contemporary consumer culture and commodity fetishism, dealing with issues such as class alienation, cultural homogenization, and mass media.

When Debord says that “All that was once directly lived has become mere representation,” he is referring to the central importance of the image in contemporary society. Images, Debord says, have supplanted genuine human interaction.[2]

Thus, Debord’s fourth thesis is: "The spectacle is not a collection of images; rather, it is a social relationship between people that is mediated by images."[11]

In a consumer society, social life is not about living, but about having; the spectacle uses the image to convey what people need and must have. Consequently, social life moves further, leaving a state of "having" and proceeding into a state of "appearing"; namely the appearance of the image.[12]

"In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the true is a moment of the false."[13]
i ask for help and advice here and other forums because i can't get it in person as i don't know anyone who makes music. i learned the guitar by myself through persistence and effort, but that is relatively simple. i suppose i learned electronic music by myself too, as there were almost no guides when i started. electronic music is much more complex an undertaking than playing guitar, different styles of synthesis, all effects, the EQ spectrum, so i think it is understandable that people want to know how to do things. it is helpful to read about processes. i don't want to put rumble basses in my music, but now i know the process i can think about how that process can be applied to other things.

perhaps that is unrelated to the OP. maybe the older people (i'm 35) all just struggled through the early stages on our own because there was nobody to ask. maybe the fact that there is a youtube video for everything and 1000 people trying to make a living by making tutorials and pretending to be "experts" means that the first option is to seek out the answer rather than discover the answer by yourself.
Lost to the Void wrote:
Rome is essentially about to fall.
yeah, it is looking that way.

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

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Re: Learning vs consuming / Millenials & music production

Post by rktic »

Hi Jos,

like where this is going. Need to append some words on Nietzsche.

youtu.be/UbWAj2drGdE


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