Thoughts on 'Techno' courses?

[Merah]

The nature of the technology we use to make music is change. Who will fare better when the next big daw / similar comes out, the person who pays for lessons to be able to work with the new technology or the person who, through previous trial and error with previous new technologies has developed 6th sense or knack as it were, for bending new technologies to his favour?

[jordanneke]

Everyone who ever discovered anything or invented anything of any note was always 'standing on the shoulders of giants'.

[Merah]

True that

[Will Frances]

I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then thought using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I’m not sure where to go from here. I haven’t made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.

I like what you did there

[Mattias]

My question is, is it a pride issue for some to admit that they paid for tutorials to get help? Unless you are a genius like Aphex Twin/Trentemoller you are just going to have to work hard and look for valuable information from other people that can help you get to the next level.

That being said there are a lot of crappy tutorials/courses out there and I never actually paid for them + I made my first tracks without any knowledge whatsoever.

My reasons for thinking critically about courses (rant ahead)

I believe that all meaningful things derive from sweat, blood, dedication, hard work, practice, frustration, investing energy, passion, time, more energy and even more time. If you're driven by such forces, the internet will provide you with all the information you need without spending a single dime. Dedication. That's what I'm talking about. There is no short route to glory. That's where Techno came from, a 'pushing-the-envelope-mindset'. Aphex Twin etc took exactly this route of mastering their crafts to develop their own sound.

Courses, sampling-, preset-packs and the latter only exist because a legion of people are looking for the path of least resistance. To me this is nothing but laziness. When I hear "lack of time" what I really read is "don't want it bad enough".

Ask yourself: Why do I want to do this? How much is this worth to me? What am I trying to achieve?

youtu.be/plWexCID-kA

Good friend, we always have a similar thinking. I'll pass on the Jägermeister bottle to you.

[Mono-xID]

Good friend, we always have a similar thinking. I'll pass on the Jägermeister bottle to you.

...and me ????

[intrusav]

Where's that little violin when you need it...

[disparate]

I found there were similar attitudes when I played guitar (of people saying you shouldn't be taught, just figure it out yourself and develop your own sound etc.) and find it all a bit ridiculous really.

Yeah not all tutorials are built equal but especially if you don't have friends/mentors who produce or you're not the type of person (I think there's a personality aspect to this too) who learns well by just experimenting then they can be a godsend. Surely developing your own style is more down to your tastes and influences etc. rather than whether you're self taught or otherwise, and if you end up making unoriginal music after doing some tutorials, that's more down to your own creativity or lack thereof? Nothing's stopping you experimenting, applying the knowledge in different contexts etc, nobody's forcing you to make the same music as your teacher or the video you watched.

Ah well, your loss I suppose if you think the only 'real' way to learn is by taking hours figuring everything out yourself?

[rktic]

Spending time to educate yourself on skills you want to acquire is dedication and getting taught a skill from someone that knows more than you will get you there faster.

Which makes more sense to you:

1. Spend two hours playing with various compressors trying to work out what they are doing

2. Spent 30 minutes a high quality tutorial that explains it in one go, then 1.5 hours actually using that knowledge in your own music.

This isn't about lack of time, it's about wanting to achieve more with the time you have.

Heres an old quote that i think sums it up nicely:

I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then thought using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I’m not sure where to go from here. I haven’t made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.

I totally agree with everything you're saying there IF your main goal is acquiring a set of skills. But is that everything already?

I'll never understand people who begrudge others not having to jump through the same shitty hoops they had to jump through. "I had to learn all this on my own with no help, so you shouldn't be getting any either!"

From what did you extrapolate that in this thread and how?



Mattias, thank you

[jordanneke]

Spending time to educate yourself on skills you want to acquire is dedication and getting taught a skill from someone that knows more than you will get you there faster.

Which makes more sense to you:

1. Spend two hours playing with various compressors trying to work out what they are doing

2. Spent 30 minutes a high quality tutorial that explains it in one go, then 1.5 hours actually using that knowledge in your own music.

This isn't about lack of time, it's about wanting to achieve more with the time you have.

Heres an old quote that i think sums it up nicely:

I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then thought using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I’m not sure where to go from here. I haven’t made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.

I totally agree with everything you're saying there IF your main goal is acquiring a set of skills. But is that everything already?

And that's the thing I was thinking about.

You hit the nail on the head with that.

I think a lot of people may sign up to these courses as a short-cut to superstardom, x factor style. The same types who have a branded logo before they've even produced a track.

[terly]

Never had much use for online courses or tutorials. I guess I preferred to learn via forums and experimentation. I took quite a bit of music lessons including a composition course at university though. I also used drum theory books to learn different rhythms and stuff. So it's not like I was completely alone.

[Mattias]

Good friend, we always have a similar thinking. I'll pass on the Jägermeister bottle to you.

...and me ????

[disparate]

I totally agree with everything you're saying there IF your main goal is acquiring a set of skills. But is that everything already?

It's not everything, and I'm sure those of us arguing that tutorials can be very useful would all agree it's only a small part of the equation, what's your point?

[Merah]

I think the best way to learn quickly would be to get involved in your local scene, go hang out with some of the more skilled producers and start competing with them. The shortest route to get skills, your talents will show up pretty quickly too.

[rktic]

It's not everything, and I'm sure those of us arguing that tutorials can be very useful would all agree it's only a small part of the equation, what's your point?

Before I'll get into my lengthy answer I'd like to stress that this isn't only a direct answer to you, disparate. We're in a community and even though we're having this conversation right now, others will read it, too. At least I hope so.

First, let me repeat what I wrote before:

When I think about the social aspect of courses, I get their benefit. I learned the most by sitting next to others, STFU and paying attention to what they were doing for months. I think we learn best when we're encased in the process. Therein lies a question I just can't answer myself yet: does a course deliver the same value?

Why does that question matter?

We're living in a highly goal oriented society. The pressure, frustration and self-doubt swing along in every second threat around here. My 16 years old son is a perfect reflection of that. Almost zero frustration tolerance when it comes to deeply climbing into a topic, let alone cutting through. I get the same at work with the students I had over the years. They want everything to be perfect and they want it now. Oddly enough, it's mostly about technical expertise. They want to do whatever they're doing to be done right. Without questioning if it's the right thing to do or not.

Look at the business world and stuff like design thinking. It can deliver great results in short time. But it's more than just a tool - it's a mindset. There is big money to gather for coaches in that field. So you end up with a horde of coaches these days emitting clever sounding words - but don't start questioning them. They're often preachers of whatever methodology some CEO wants to apply to his company - whether it makes sense or not. From my personal experience: the latter is often the case.

Back to music production

I get the urge to get past the lack of skills department as fast as possible - cause it sucks. If a course delivers you that piece of information you were looking for: great. Given the above context: do these courses teach you technical skills or a mindset? And how do you measure that?

I have to quote Dattington now.

Which makes more sense to you:

1. Spend two hours playing with various compressors trying to work out what they are doing

2. Spent 30 minutes a high quality tutorial that explains it in one go, then 1.5 hours actually using that knowledge in your own music.

I would always prefer option 1. But not for two hours. For two months. It takes years to gather a fundamental understanding of Compression. Fuck, every now and then after 25 years of using them I still find myself in a situation where I'm like "WTF?". I'm very suspicious when I hear things like above. It makes me think about that CEO who spends a shitload of money for some coach over the course of a month who doesn't generate any longterm value for the company.

And that's fine - don't get this as a judgement. I've been there myself in other circumstances as well. I'm raising a 16 years old teenager and look back on shortterm decisions that were totally counterproductive for what I wanted to achieve on the long run.

So - what's my point in the end?

Thou shalt think for yourselves.

Cause it's something you don't get taught and told these days too often.

[rktic]

It's not everything, and I'm sure those of us arguing that tutorials can be very useful would all agree it's only a small part of the equation, what's your point?

Before I'll get into my lengthy answer I'd like to stress that this isn't only a direct answer to you, disparate. We're in a community and even though we're having this conversation right now, others hopefully read it, too.

First, let me repeat what I wrote before:

When I think about the social aspect of courses, I get a possible benefit. I learned the most by sitting next to others, STFU and paying attention to what they were doing for months. I think we learn best when we're encased in the process. Therein lies a question I just can't answer myself yet: does a course deliver the same value?

Why does that question matter?

We're living in a highly goal oriented society. The pressure, frustration and self-doubt swing along in every second threat around here. My 16 years old son is a perfect reflection of that. Almost zero frustration tolerance when it comes to deeply climbing into a topic, let alone cutting through. I get the same at work with the students I had over the years. They want everything to be perfect and they want it now. Oddly enough, it's mostly about technical expertise. They want to do whatever they're doing to be done right. Without questioning if it's the right thing to do or not.

Look at the business world and stuff like design thinking. It can deliver great results in short time. But it's more than just a tool - it's a mindset. There is big money to gather for coaches in that field. So you end up with a horde of coaches these days emitting clever sounding words - but don't start questioning them. They're often preachers of whatever methodology some CEO wants to apply to his company - whether it makes sense or not. From my personal experience: the latter is often the case. While only delivering a tool, without attempting to change minds.

Back to music production

I get the urge to get past the lack of skills department as fast as possible - cause it sucks. If a course delivers you that piece of information you were looking for: great. Given the above context: do these courses teach you technical skills or a mindset? And how do you measure that?

I have to quote Dattington now.

Which makes more sense to you:

1. Spend two hours playing with various compressors trying to work out what they are doing

2. Spent 30 minutes a high quality tutorial that explains it in one go, then 1.5 hours actually using that knowledge in your own music.

I would always prefer option 1. But not for two hours. For two months. It takes years to gather a fundamental understanding of Compression. Fuck, every now and then after 25 years of using them I still find myself in a situation where I'm like "WTF?". I'm very suspicious when I hear things like above. It makes me think about that CEO who spends a shitload of money for some coach over the course of a month who doesn't generate any longterm value for the company.

And that's fine - don't get this as a judgement. I've been there myself in other circumstances as well. I'm raising a 16 years old teenager and look back on shortterm decisions that were totally counterproductive for what I wanted to achieve on the long run.

So - what's my point in the end?

Thou shalt think for yourselves.

Cause it's something you don't get taught and told these days too often.

[Mattias]

A big problem today is that "high quality tutorials & courses" explains things that takes loads of time and experience and is ever changing due to it's nature of being program dependent in a, set in relation, extremely short time span to cover it all. Too much of our modern age is about speed, haste, quickness, fast fast fast and shortcuts.

I'm with Ronny all the way here, he doesn't point a finger towards the nature of courses but instead he raises a finger as a note of caution towards them and for good reasons.

With that being said, I've done and will continue to offer production / technical courses on a personal level at my place as I see it as being the purist spirit of learning and curiosity and it can be done in another manner. I also toss out advice and feedback here, over email, on facebook and everywhere else basically.

I wanted to mention that above because everything is about balance and the ability to view all sides of the heart of the matter.

[Root]

A big problem today is that "high quality tutorials & courses" explains things that takes loads of time and experience and is ever changing due to it's nature of being program dependent in a, set in relation, extremely short time span to cover it all. Too much of our modern age is about speed, haste, quickness, fast fast fast and shortcuts.

I'm with Ronny all the way here, he doesn't point a finger towards the nature of courses but instead he raises a finger as a note of caution towards them and for good reasons.

With that being said, I've done and will continue to offer production / technical courses on a personal level at my place as I see it as being the purist spirit of learning and curiosity and it can be done in another manner. I also toss out advice and feedback here, over email, on facebook and everywhere else basically.

I wanted to mention that above because everything is about balance and the ability to view all sides of the heart of the matter.

True that. I'd add that today from the learners' perspective it's about speed, haste and shortcuts. From sight of the ones selling stuff, it's about selling stuff. Simple as that. There are 'quality courses' because people pay for them. Not for teaching people 'quality'. Same with hardware and all this new blinky neon plastic gear. It's about reaching the masses, feeding the 'i can be a star and better than anyone else'-spirit, not feeding the 'we do it cause we love it'-spirit. The exception proves the rule.

[Lost to the Void]

Ok, let me approach this from my perspective.
So I teach production.
I`ve been teaching for years in the studio, one-on-one and to small groups (not done this for a while) and doing guest lectures at universities and production schools.
I used to also be an ableton certified trainer.

I don`t think there is anything wrong at all with "lessons" per se.

It`s down to how they are taught, but also how they are received.

By that I mean some people are looking to learn, to be taught whilst others are just looking to be shown how to do stuff.
There is a subtle difference.
The younger generations mostly fall in to the latter category and it is one of the reasons I teach less.

I prefer to teach philosophically and practically. I like to give the theory and philosophy behind a process along with practical examples. That way, people understand why something is done, and not just how. In that way, that technique then can be applied more universally, with more applications, in more situations.

You only have to look to this very forum for examples of this.
Noobs come to the forum, ask for a specific "how do I...techno?" question. Get a concise answer, and then come back with "it didn`t work".
The reason being they only wanted a very specific how to, they don`t want to learn the technique, the reasons, the wider context, and so they can`t adapt beyond the specific parameters of what they are show.
"I set my threshold to blah blah and it didn`t work"

"Well, did you check any gain reduction was happening at that threshold?"

"No"

...
...
....

Which is why I say a lot, in this forum, to people.
There is really nothing specific to techno that is not a production skill that doesn`t apply in another situation.
EQ is EQ
Compression is compression.

Once you understand the processes fully, you can apply them wherever and whenever.


And this is where specific courses fall down. In this context, Techno courses. I`ve seen many, from pointblank to whatever, and they rarely explain the process. It`s normally

"I do kick drums like this...blah blah compression, blah blah EQ...blah blah pitch envelope"

It`s so specific and contextually narrow that you really don`t learn anything.

And of course if the teacher only teachers specifics, and the learner only wants specifics, no real teaching OR learning is happening.


So this is why I get ratty sometimes when people just want to hone in on specific things and get aggravated when they can`t get it specifically when very specific instructions are given.
A lot of the time, these things require a broad understanding of the technique and how it applies in a range of contexts.


As an aside, people go in to production courses at university level, rarely come out knowing how to produce. I`ve worked with and taught a lot of people at post graduate level, and they never seem to understand basic stuff like EQ and levelling.
That`s some of the problem with academia though, and a whole other discussion. The lack of real world application and experience in academia is frustrating sometimes.


Anyway....

I am mostly self taught. But I had teachers. I had mentors, people I worked for and with, in studios, and I sucked their knowledge down like a sponge, and then worked on it and applied it.

Most of the best life lessons you tend to get through failure, patience, and just by doing it, "hard work". It`s how you get a real deep understanding, a thorough understanding. Then you can go to tutorials and online stuff and pick up extra specifics that you will understand and appreciate more because you have a better grounding.

I`m not one of these people who thinks "well I had to suffer so you should".
But I do think you learn more by getting in the mud and just working it out, because you develop as your skills develop and it means your music gets more personality due to it.
It`s like people who are classically trained musicians compared to those who just did it. Most of the time (not always) the classically trained are trapped in theory and the modes of classicism. And the real interesting stuff is from those who just did it.

So I think the best lessons are broader, longer courses and lessons, rather than stuff the OP linked to in post one, which is essentially snake oil "I`m going to show you how to make tech house from scratch". You`re not really learning anything that will give you a good bass-line, a good grounding of skills, as a producer in those kinds of courses. You are leaning very narrow limited skills. Whereas teaching and learning should be about widening potential and imagination.

I would rather teach "this is how compression works" and then say "go compress stuff, come back to me with questions"

Than "this is how you compress a Bumload kick drum".....

Person who is given the former lesson is most likely going to come back with much more interesting results (unless they are a total dullard).


If you are going to try
go all the way.....
etc etc etc etc

[Pelecaras]

Ok, let me approach this from my perspective.
So I teach production.
I`ve been teaching for years in the studio, one-on-one and to small groups (not done this for a while) and doing guest lectures at universities and production schools.
I used to also be an ableton certified trainer.

I don`t think there is anything wrong at all with "lessons" per se.

It`s down to how they are taught, but also how they are received.

By that I mean some people are looking to learn, to be taught whilst others are just looking to be shown how to do stuff.
There is a subtle difference.
The younger generations mostly fall in to the latter category and it is one of the reasons I teach less.

I prefer to teach philosophically and practically. I like to give the theory and philosophy behind a process along with practical examples. That way, people understand why something is done, and not just how. In that way, that technique then can be applied more universally, with more applications, in more situations.

You only have to look to this very forum for examples of this.
Noobs come to the forum, ask for a specific "how do I...techno?" question. Get a concise answer, and then come back with "it didn`t work".
The reason being they only wanted a very specific how to, they don`t want to learn the technique, the reasons, the wider context, and so they can`t adapt beyond the specific parameters of what they are show.
"I set my threshold to blah blah and it didn`t work"

"Well, did you check any gain reduction was happening at that threshold?"

"No"

...
...
....

Which is why I say a lot, in this forum, to people.
There is really nothing specific to techno that is not a production skill that doesn`t apply in another situation.
EQ is EQ
Compression is compression.

Once you understand the processes fully, you can apply them wherever and whenever.


And this is where specific courses fall down. In this context, Techno courses. I`ve seen many, from pointblank to whatever, and they rarely explain the process. It`s normally

"I do kick drums like this...blah blah compression, blah blah EQ...blah blah pitch envelope"

It`s so specific and contextually narrow that you really don`t learn anything.

And of course if the teacher only teachers specifics, and the learner only wants specifics, no real teaching OR learning is happening.


So this is why I get ratty sometimes when people just want to hone in on specific things and get aggravated when they can`t get it specifically when very specific instructions are given.
A lot of the time, these things require a broad understanding of the technique and how it applies in a range of contexts.


As an aside, people go in to production courses at university level, rarely come out knowing how to produce. I`ve worked with and taught a lot of people at post graduate level, and they never seem to understand basic stuff like EQ and levelling.
That`s some of the problem with academia though, and a whole other discussion. The lack of real world application and experience in academia is frustrating sometimes.


Anyway....

I am mostly self taught. But I had teachers. I had mentors, people I worked for and with, in studios, and I sucked their knowledge down like a sponge, and then worked on it and applied it.

Most of the best life lessons you tend to get through failure, patience, and just by doing it, "hard work". It`s how you get a real deep understanding, a thorough understanding. Then you can go to tutorials and online stuff and pick up extra specifics that you will understand and appreciate more because you have a better grounding.

I`m not one of these people who thinks "well I had to suffer so you should".
But I do think you learn more by getting in the mud and just working it out, because you develop as your skills develop and it means your music gets more personality due to it.
It`s like people who are classically trained musicians compared to those who just did it. Most of the time (not always) the classically trained are trapped in theory and the modes of classicism. And the real interesting stuff is from those who just did it.

So I think the best lessons are broader, longer courses and lessons, rather than stuff the OP linked to in post one, which is essentially snake oil "I`m going to show you how to make tech house from scratch". You`re not really learning anything that will give you a good bass-line, a good grounding of skills, as a producer in those kinds of courses. You are leaning very narrow limited skills. Whereas teaching and learning should be about widening potential and imagination.

I would rather teach "this is how compression works" and then say "go compress stuff, come back to me with questions"

Than "this is how you compress a Bumload kick drum".....

Person who is given the former lesson is most likely going to come back with much more interesting results (unless they are a total dullard).


If you are going to try
go all the way.....
etc etc etc etc

You're right when you say that tons of sites will tell you how to compress a kick drum but none tell you why to or indeed when to compress a kick....for instance I used to think that I 'had' to compress my kicks, like it was some kind of unquestioned rule. My ignorance was born out of seeing too many tutorial videos that banged on about compression blah blah blah, but when I actually just paid attention and LISTENED to my kicks I realised that sometimes compression was sucking the life out of them rather than making them better. I only realised this when I stopped watching tutorials and started making kicks myself through trial and error.
My point being that I only learned something about compression when I stopped trying to learn about compression and started to use compression.

Although I'm not against courses per se, I do believe that the likes of point blank, dubspot etc prove that a fool and his (or her.....don't want to upset Stacie-Ann) money are easily parted.