Dance Festival.....Saudi Arabia

[[wesellboxes]]

Are you trying to imply that Mills has no other gig options?

No, I was referring to your point of not attending or playing a Tory sponsored gig?

How would you feel if that was the only ever gig in a country where it's unlikely that you'll ever leave?

[[wesellboxes]]

What is your point?

To disagree with me?

To get upset?

That taking money for one of the most repressive regimes is OK?

is Poor Bastards is a better term? Unfortunate cunts?

I'm not upset and as I said at the start I'm playing devil's advocate, but as I also said there are more facets to this than the binary notion of already rich DJ's taking blood money from dictatorships. Every post and tweet I've read about this has been steeped in base level outrage, white saviour syndrome and very little else.

[jordanneke]

What is your point?

To disagree with me?

To get upset?

That taking money for one of the most repressive regimes is OK?

is Poor Bastards is a better term? Unfortunate cunts?

I'm not upset and as I said at the start I'm playing devil's advocate, but as I also said there are more facets to this than the binary notion of already rich DJ's taking blood money from dictatorships. Every post and tweet I've read about this has been steeped in base level outrage, white saviour syndrome and very little else.

What are these facets? Please explain.

White saviour syndrome?

I’ll give 2 personal examples. In the 80’s my whole family boycotted goods from South Africa. Buying those goods were seen as tacit agreement with the system the government had in place. Once apartheid ended, I was able to enjoy sinaasaplesap again.

The shop round the corner is known to be racist in terms of searching blacks. So I inconvenience myself not to shop there. I don’t want to support their racism. I go without rather than shop there.

Were all the people in these situations guilty of the bad behavior of their employers? Did some of them suffer due to my money being spent elsewhere? Still, I made a stand. And I have absolutely NO social clout or ability to make a political statement to literally millions of people, as these DJ’s can.

I am disappointed in these DJs. They have the audience to bring human rights abuses to the millions by making a statement. The could donate the money LGBT or women’s charities in the Middle East. The entire scene came out of the very marginalised groups that would be murdered by the regime they have chosen to play for. Peace, Love, Unity and respect indeed. Business has no problem making money from situations like this. I at least thought that some of these DJ’s were different. Business techno indeed.



That is my considered take. If you had read the previous posts, I think you’ll find that they are not steeped in base level outrage or white saviour syndrome.

[Val Endrada]

I'm not upset and as I said at the start I'm playing devil's advocate, but as I also said there are more facets to this than the binary notion of already rich DJ's taking blood money from dictatorships. Every post and tweet I've read about this has been steeped in base level outrage, white saviour syndrome and very little else.

"Playing the devil's advocate" means you're supposed to try to argue for some sort of opinion. Like, for example, coming up with good arguments for supporting this festival. What you're doing now is just throwing out random accusations. The idea that the users here on the forum are racially biased, "steeped in base level outrage" and "very little else" is laughable at best. I hope you can see that.

[[wesellboxes]]

"Playing the devil's advocate" means you're supposed to try to argue for some sort of opinion. Like, for example, coming up with good arguments for supporting this festival. What you're doing now is just throwing out random accusations. The idea that the users here on the forum are racially biased, "steeped in base level outrage" and "very little else" is laughable at best. I hope you can see that.

My own words were "None of this sits easily in the slightest", I'm certainly not looking for arguments to support this festival or even be contrarian. And I'm not just accusing the forum. It was a cross-post from Twitter where I see most of the "boo to business techno, boo to murderers" i.e. base level outrage.

I've also seen Saudi conflated with the UAE, Iran and even ISIS-occupied Syria in reactions to this. What's that if it's not racially biased?

You listed all the DJs playing at this event in a wall of shame but didn't make the effort to realise that 20 or so DJ's on there were Saudi nationals. Including an unveiled woman playing on the main stage, who only a year ago wouldn't be allowed out the house without a male chaperone and had to wear a full burka.

They're citing this as massive leaps forward and progress. Why are their voices any less valid than ours?

[[wesellboxes]]

I am disappointed in these DJs. They have the audience to bring human rights abuses to the millions by making a statement. The could donate the money LGBT or women’s charities in the Middle East. The entire scene came out of the very marginalised groups that would be murdered by the regime they have chosen to play for. Peace, Love, Unity and respect indeed. Business has no problem making money from situations like this. I at least thought that some of these DJ’s were different. Business techno indeed.

To be honest with you I am too. And was flabbergasted that Tengalia and Kerri Chandler played at the last one. Though I did look into the actual laws regarding homosexuality and according to Wiki and Amnesty, there is no actual statute forbidding it. There's an interpretation of Shaira that advocates stoning but isn't enforced. I can't imagine gay people have an easy time whatsoever, but if people are going to condemn something then I think it's important they know exactly what they are condemning.

As for the headliners, we really don't know how they are spending their 10x fee. 99% are probably just putting on the pile with all the rest but you never know.

[Lost to the Void]

Are you trying to imply that Mills has no other gig options?

No, I was referring to your point of not attending or playing a Tory sponsored gig?

How would you feel if that was the only ever gig in a country where it's unlikely that you'll ever leave?

I'd probably put on an illegal rave. That's what I did here.
Plenty of empty desert in Saudi Arabia.

None of that excuses Mills from putting blood money in his back pocket. It just feels like hero worship clouding the real issue to me.
Underground Resistance set a political credo for techno.
Mills has pissed on it in one greedy move.

Overground Compliance.

[Lost to the Void]

I am disappointed in these DJs. They have the audience to bring human rights abuses to the millions by making a statement. The could donate the money LGBT or women’s charities in the Middle East. The entire scene came out of the very marginalised groups that would be murdered by the regime they have chosen to play for. Peace, Love, Unity and respect indeed. Business has no problem making money from situations like this. I at least thought that some of these DJ’s were different. Business techno indeed.

To be honest with you I am too. And was flabbergasted that Tengalia and Kerri Chandler played at the last one. Though I did look into the actual laws regarding homosexuality and according to Wiki and Amnesty, there is no actual statute forbidding it. There's an interpretation of Shaira that advocates stoning but isn't enforced. I can't imagine gay people have an easy time whatsoever, but if people are going to condemn something then I think it's important they know exactly what they are condemning.

As for the headliners, we really don't know how they are spending their 10x fee. 99% are probably just putting on the pile with all the rest but you never know.

Dude they crucified 6 homosexuals about 2 weeks ago.
Public executions by lopping off heads or stoning to death are not uncommon. As are public hangings and leaving the bodies swinging.

This is a propaganda exercise by the Saudi Government.
No revolutions will be had by Jeff Mills farting around on a 909 and talking about grey alien bullshit.

[Val Endrada]

"Playing the devil's advocate" means you're supposed to try to argue for some sort of opinion. Like, for example, coming up with good arguments for supporting this festival. What you're doing now is just throwing out random accusations. The idea that the users here on the forum are racially biased, "steeped in base level outrage" and "very little else" is laughable at best. I hope you can see that.

My own words were "None of this sits easily in the slightest", I'm certainly not looking for arguments to support this festival or even be contrarian. And I'm not just accusing the forum. It was a cross-post from Twitter where I see most of the "boo to business techno, boo to murderers" i.e. base level outrage.

I've also seen Saudi conflated with the UAE, Iran and even ISIS-occupied Syria in reactions to this. What's that if it's not racially biased?

You listed all the DJs playing at this event in a wall of shame but didn't make the effort to realise that 20 or so DJ's on there were Saudi nationals. Including an unveiled woman playing on the main stage, who only a year ago wouldn't be allowed out the house without a male chaperone and had to wear a full burka.

They're citing this as massive leaps forward and progress. Why are their voices any less valid than ours?

Well, first of all, that's not what "playing the devil's advocate" means. In order to do that, you would (in this case) have take on the views of someone who supports the festival (like a Saudi official, for example), even though you don't personally agree with those views.

That I didn't examine the nationality of every artist on that list is true, but since I find it shameful for anyone to perform at a propaganda event organized by the Saudi rulers, no matter where they're from, I don't see how that's relevant.

That a single Saudi woman has been allowed to participate looks like tokenism to me (the "token Saudi woman" meant to display how "wonderfully modern and free" life in Saudi Arabia has become for women). I don't really buy it, to be honest. If female DJs become able to play regularly in Saudi Arabia in general, on their own terms, on equal footing with men - and without being constantly harassed by the "religious police", I'll take that back of course. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.

[Lost to the Void]

there is no actual statute forbidding it. There's an interpretation of Shaira that advocates stoning but isn't enforced. I can't imagine gay people have an easy time whatsoever, but if people are going to condemn something then I think it's important they know exactly what they are condemning.
"

I find this statement worryingly apologetic.

Let's be clear on this, there is NO place for homosexuality in Islam. The Quran condemns it. And the Quran is the ultimate word in Islam. So of course there are no statutes, as none of the Quran is a statute in Saudi law, as it is the base line of civil life.
The punishments for homosexuality are what is debated, and there are different punishments suggested in the Hadith (the words and deeds of momo). However the Hadith generally referenced are considered to be fairly accurate in terms of the line of narration. As they are Bukari and Dawud, though other Hadith are also referenced.
Saudi law and society is fairly fundamentalist, driven by the Salafi school of thinking so yeah being gay isn't an "easy time" as you say........ Which is the most lowballing a statement as you can possibly say.
It's a little bit like saying its not easy being black in the KKK.

[Belka]

What i heared once when it comes to homosexuality in Quran (at least what i heard on my way home in the radio on a public broadcast culture radio channel a few years ago)... they said there is just one passage where Mohammed says:"yeah dude just dont do it ok...".
Its one of the most harmless "dont do its" in Religion ... thats why homosexuality was pretty normal in the arabic states before the 19th century ... the shit you see nowadays is a direct cultural change forced by the europes and especially the first world war, the Jihad driven by the Germans. In the 2nd world war they did it again ... and now they chop of your head if you love another man.
Would never take a foot in such countries

[Lost to the Void]

What i heared once when it comes to homosexuality in Quran (at least what i heard on my way home in the radio on a public broadcast culture radio channel a few years ago)... they said there is just one passage where Mohammed says:"yeah dude just dont do it ok...".
Its one of the most harmless "dont do its" in Religion ... thats why homosexuality was pretty normal in the arabic states before the 19th century ... the shit you see nowadays is a direct cultural change forced by the europes and especially the first world war, the Jihad driven by the Germans. In the 2nd world war they did it again ... and now they chop of your head if you love another man.
Would never take a foot in such countries

Not true.

I've actually read the Quran

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone
4:16

Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!
7:80-83
(this is where justification for stoning comes from, makes more sense in Arabic)

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings. O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind. Then afterward We destroyed the others. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!

26:165-173

And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." He said: "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!" When Our Messengers came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."
29:28-31

Destroying the people is where the drive for the death sentence comes from.

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447 (Hadith)
Lots people were sodomites.

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.

Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4448 (Hadith)

(Dawud is one of the 6, meaning one of the 6 most widely accepted Hadith in Sunni Islam)

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lower garment under one cover; and a woman should not be lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover.

Sunan Abu Dawud 31:4007


Malik related to me that he asked Ibn Shihab about someone who committed sodomy. Ibn Shihab said, "He is to be stoned, whether or not he is muhsan."

Al-Muwatta 41:11

Muwatta (known as Imam Malik) is considered the most authentic of Hadith.

There's a lot more but I won't spurt too much religious bollocks.
All of the above is at the very heart of fundamentalist Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia.

[Lost to the Void]

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[[wesellboxes]]

Dude they crucified 6 homosexuals about 2 weeks ago.
Public executions by lopping off heads or stoning to death are not uncommon. As are public hangings and leaving the bodies swinging.

Do you have a link to a news source for this? As I said, I'm getting my info from Amnesty who I would count as reliable. The last incidents I'm reading about are from 2000-ish. Certainly doesn't excuse anything and is alien to the west but not recent.

That a single Saudi woman has been allowed to participate looks like tokenism to me

When that actual woman says "this is liberating" to denounce her very experience as tokenism is equally repressive

If female DJs become able to play regularly in Saudi Arabia in general, on their own terms, on equal footing with men

Apart from this, there's no actual clubs or bars in Saudi, only private and underground parties, so in many ways, they are equal to their counterparts.

And the Quran is the ultimate word in Islam

Yeah, you can go on a massive quote fest to prove your point but it doesn't always corroborate with the actual society within Saudi or any other Muslim country either. Did you know there are friendly bars in Dubai, while I'm sure you've read enough Burroughs or Ginsberg to know the history of Morocco?

and now they chop of your head if you love another man.

Who are "they?" and do you have a citation or credible link for this?

And this, I guess, is the point of my original post. Whether it's semiotically devil's advocate or not. There's a lot to condemn about this festival and the regime of the host country but glib statements is just bleating from the sidelines. Which accounts for 99% of posts I'm seeing about this all over the internet.

[Críoch]

Forgot to ask this question..

What do people think about foreign workers going over, living & working in SA? Teachers, nurses etc.. Is it the same difference?

I've known lots of people who have gone there over the years & it's pretty lucrative from what I can tell.

[Val Endrada]

That a single Saudi woman has been allowed to participate looks like tokenism to me

When that actual woman says "this is liberating" to denounce her very experience as tokenism is equally repressive

Suspecting Nouf Sufyani of allowing herself to be used is equal to the repression of women by the Saudi authorities?

Come on dude, that's wildly off the mark.

Suspecting a single black guy at a Trump rally of being stupid isn't "repressing black Americans" either.

[jordanneke]

Forgot to ask this question..

What do people think about foreign workers going over, living & working in SA? Teachers, nurses etc.. Is it the same difference?

I've known lots of people who have gone there over the years & it's pretty lucrative from what I can tell.

Yeah, you make shit tonnes of cash, but you have to live in SA.

I would never work there as a teacher, it wouldn't sit well with me, but my wife works for a company that has lots of ties to SA.

I think the distinction for me is that this is clearly a propaganda event that promotes a scene that is the antithesis to what the SA government seems to be like. Also, the individuals have an opportunity to communicate to literally millions that they know what the KSA do is bad.

That's why the rules for celebrities/ those who live in the public are different. Footballers being the prime example.

[jordanneke]

To be honest with you I am too. And was flabbergasted that Tengalia and Kerri Chandler played at the last one.

Danny Tenaglia? Really? The last mix I listened to from him contained a track with the lyric 'Put these balls in yo mouf'.

That'd be like me writing a track for the Alt right and the KKK in hopes that it might help to change and make them less racist.

[[wesellboxes]]

Suspecting a single black guy at a Trump rally of being stupid isn't "repressing black Americans" either.

The only thing wide off the mark is that comparison.

[Val Endrada]

Suspecting a single black guy at a Trump rally of being stupid isn't "repressing black Americans" either.

The only thing wide off the mark is that comparison.

At his point you're basically just acting like a troll. I can't really take you seriously, anyway. Which is actually kind of sad. Working out your reasons for wanting to defend some of the worst criminals on the planet would probably be advisable, but I'm not exactly a therapist. Best of luck to you.