Technoacts that are not white males

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[wesellboxes]
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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by [wesellboxes] »

Lost to the Void wrote:The only thing is, being the fucking dance music scene, a place filled with the desperate who will do anything just for a little suck on the fame titty, I give it 2 months and everybody will love him again.
While it's fairly obvious that guy in question has overdosed on 4Chan and possibly far too much THC his "apology" was about him and he even gave up half way through that. A quick look now and he's gone into full Infowars meme mode, not quite as bad as routinely using the N and P word but that's what the industry will remember him for.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by [wesellboxes] »

winston wrote:things didn't go well the last time a german said this and started making plans for large groups of minorities to be in their own "zones"
He was Austrian and as long as Root is not a bitter, failed water colour artist I'm sure his party won't end with the largest genocide of the 20th century. There's probably limited capacity at the venue for a start.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by dubdub »

Prophän wrote: I can't see what techno has to do with racial identity since it's not limited to early detroit, if we follow your reasoning than the whole techno scene today is nothing but a big cultural appropriation.
Well, it is in a way since techno emerged out of that specific context and it's not like techno has changed that radically since then, everyone is still building on the blueprint set by the first/second wave guys. And there are still records coming out all the time that explicitely reference specific detroit/chiago things. Or all the white producers with 'black' sounding names. I don't think 'cultural appropriation' is necessarily anything bad however and I don't buy this simplistic exploitation narrative since the whole thing, just like 20th century Jazz, was a very complex, back and forth mix of american black and white european culture. The detroit guys 'appropriated' european culture and music just as much european producer later 'appropriated' their culture.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by dubdub »

winston wrote:
Root wrote: ...as there is a superiority of white males...
things didn't go well the last time a german said this and started making plans for large groups of minorities to be in their own "zones"
Ah yes of course, first you try and book underprivileged groups for a music festival and then you end up with ... genocide.

He also didn't say anything about special 'zones'. That's your interpretation. It's not what he meant by 'safe space'. It doesn't mean no whites it just means you can't be a bigot dickbag.

Jesus christ.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

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btw, some more good Berlin-based female DJs (did you see my post on the last page?). No huge names.

Dana Ruh (house)
Resom (house)
Sylva Rymd (drone-y techno)
Johanna Knutsson (house/techno)
Uta (house/Uk garage)
Barbera Preisinger (house)
Rroxymore (house)
Alienata (electro/techno)

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by P0607r0n »

I live and hang out in the community of people who are against racism/fascism/bigotry. The problem with some of them is that they sometimes a thing out of nothing by misinterpretation of ones intentions. When you fight the war you start to see enemies everywhere. I would suggest you to not be so fixed on the gender/skin colour of the people you invite to play, just be more aware of who do you invite to the party, where do you promote whole thing. While most of "drunk digbags" won't be interested to jump in to tye venue full of queer, you still need some sort of selection. Having big as fridge dood wearing a skirt on the doors is a good idea. :D

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

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dubdub wrote: the whole thing, just like 20th century Jazz, was a very complex, back and forth mix of american black and white european culture. The detroit guys 'appropriated' european culture and music just as much european producer later 'appropriated' their culture.
Yes , so maybe now we can both agree that ethinicty doesn't have anything to do with techno since everybody appropriated everybody's culture and we're all humans who happen to share a taste for the same music no matter where we're from ?

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

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Prophän wrote:
dubdub wrote: the whole thing, just like 20th century Jazz, was a very complex, back and forth mix of american black and white european culture. The detroit guys 'appropriated' european culture and music just as much european producer later 'appropriated' their culture.
Yes , so maybe now we can both agree that ethinicty doesn't have anything to do with techno since everybody appropriated everybody's culture and we're all humans who happen to share a taste for the same music no matter where we're from ?
How does that negate the factor of ethnicity? You seem to be under the impression that ethnicity can only play a role if we are taking about direct racism and oppression. But the fact of the matter is that people's ethnicity heavily influences their cultural upbringing which influences the music they make. People from different ethnic backgrounds are all going to perceive the same music from a different perspective because they had different cultural attitudes to music and likely listened to different music as a child.

Furthermore, techno wouldn't exist without questions of race & ethnicity. The black music that techno is based directly upon, funk, disco, soul etc. has a direct lineage back to the age of slavery and the question of what "black" identity is - which has always played a prominent role in that kind of music given that 'african' americans over generations had been almost totally seperated from actual african culture and at the said time excluded from white american hegemonic culture. Kraftwerk is a great example of how this isn't exclusive to black identity. After WW2, Germany faced a very serious identity crisis - can there be a 'germanic' identity or ethnicity that isn't fundamentally fascist? What would such a new, non-fascist, german identity look like? Kraftwerk directly played with these sorts of questions of ethnic and cultural identity with all the technology and ideas of becoming robots and also all the obvious, hammed up german stereotypes of stiffness, accuracy, order etc. Perhaps here you could make an explanation for perhaps why black people from the US were so drawn to Kraftwerk, an incredibly distant cultural phenomenon for these people. But in both there is a central theme of trying to confront questions of ethnic identity and other forms of identity with technology and technological advancement. I don't think it's a coincidence that especially in Drexciya, which went as far as fabricating a new black mythology, you can find all sorts of german names and references to german culture. And these sorts of questions on identity go through all of techno's history. The 'faceless techno guy' is not a form of non-identity, it's a very explicit statement of identity directly opposed to the cultural hegemony of the classic rockstar that was so widespread up to the 80s. As such an explicit statement of identity, the mask doesn't resolve questions of ethnicity, it merely transforms them.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by Lost to the Void »

Detroit is not the only root of techno.
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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by Prophän »

dubdub wrote:
Prophän wrote:
dubdub wrote: the whole thing, just like 20th century Jazz, was a very complex, back and forth mix of american black and white european culture. The detroit guys 'appropriated' european culture and music just as much european producer later 'appropriated' their culture.
Yes , so maybe now we can both agree that ethinicty doesn't have anything to do with techno since everybody appropriated everybody's culture and we're all humans who happen to share a taste for the same music no matter where we're from ?
How does that negate the factor of ethnicity? You seem to be under the impression that ethnicity can only play a role if we are taking about direct racism and oppression. But the fact of the matter is that people's ethnicity heavily influences their cultural upbringing which influences the music they make. People from different ethnic backgrounds are all going to perceive the same music from a different perspective because they had different cultural attitudes to music and likely listened to different music as a child.

Furthermore, techno wouldn't exist without questions of race & ethnicity. The black music that techno is based directly upon, funk, disco, soul etc. has a direct lineage back to the age of slavery and the question of what "black" identity is - which has always played a prominent role in that kind of music given that 'african' americans over generations had been almost totally seperated from actual african culture and at the said time excluded from white american hegemonic culture. Kraftwerk is a great example of how this isn't exclusive to black identity. After WW2, Germany faced a very serious identity crisis - can there be a 'germanic' identity or ethnicity that isn't fundamentally fascist? What would such a new, non-fascist, german identity look like? Kraftwerk directly played with these sorts of questions of ethnic and cultural identity with all the technology and ideas of becoming robots and also all the obvious, hammed up german stereotypes of stiffness, accuracy, order etc. Perhaps here you could make an explanation for perhaps why black people from the US were so drawn to Kraftwerk, an incredibly distant cultural phenomenon for these people. But in both there is a central theme of trying to confront questions of ethnic identity and other forms of identity with technology and technological advancement. I don't think it's a coincidence that especially in Drexciya, which went as far as fabricating a new black mythology, you can find all sorts of german names and references to german culture. And these sorts of questions on identity go through all of techno's history. The 'faceless techno guy' is not a form of non-identity, it's a very explicit statement of identity directly opposed to the cultural hegemony of the classic rockstar that was so widespread up to the 80s. As such an explicit statement of identity, the mask doesn't resolve questions of ethnicity, it merely transforms them.
I agree with most of what you said, but you seem to be missing the point as we're not discussing the origins of techno.

Let's make it clear, I will be more specific now : in 2018 how is the idea that you can just separate techno and racial identity bizzare, when I listen to a techno track, "where is this producer from" is not the first questions that pops in my mind, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for a lot of people.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by [wesellboxes] »

Prophän wrote:when I listen to a techno track, "where is this producer from" is not the first questions that pops in my mind, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for a lot of people.
This is quite true but in three pages of debate nobody mentioned it was black and latino gay clubs that got the ball rolling with all this, hence the associations.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

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Lost to the Void wrote:Detroit is not the only root of techno.
But Kraftwerk... and so on. Point is, there is rarely one root of anything. You don't have to be a cultural relativist to notice that. And roots are one thing, adoption and appreciation of the cultural form in question are another. You could easily say that techno has been 'appropriated' and taken root in Europe, as opposed to the US. Also ask any trance/EBM fan and they won't see the connection to Detroit at all. And that's because there hardly is one. A lot of the euro-trance techno had it roots in psychedelic (white) rock/synth music not in black funk/soul.

Sorry for derailing a bit.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by Mono-xID »

Just tell me where the fuckin' festival is...

(oh, and please don't book Sylva Rymd. Saw her playing twice and it can't get more boring as that. After 2 hours of boring droney graveyard techno I left the club. Where is the funk for fucks sake?)
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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by The_G »

Root wrote:Guys, i'm booking on talent and moral, that's why i asked here. But you can't deny that a whole white male lineup (what happens often) is based on social discrimination. What's the Problem with trying to not reproduce this. Sure, we're not gonna book a wack lineup that's maximum divers.
And no, there is no such thing as discriminating white males with this post, just as a 50/50 male-female lineup won't be. I don't know a lot female DJs, if you do, let me know. Especially no big names..
I think it's great that you're looking to have a diverse lineup, and it shouldn't be hard to make that happen.

As I mentioned earlier, book Steve Rachmad! He's a great DJ and made some of my all-time favorite records back in the 90s. If you like stuff on the border with house, then look at Peggy Gou. She's probably hard to book right now as really in demand all over the world. But her productions are top notch and she's a quality DJ too. Even did one of the few non-shitty Boiler Room sets.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

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Prophän wrote: I agree with most of what you said, but you seem to be missing the point as we're not discussing the origins of techno.

Let's make it clear, I will be more specific now : in 2018 how is the idea that you can just separate techno and racial identity bizzare, when I listen to a techno track, "where is this producer from" is not the first questions that pops in my mind, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for a lot of people.
Of course that's not the first question that pops into my mind but that doesn't render any questions of ethnicity irrelevant which is what was claimed in this thread.
chava wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Detroit is not the only root of techno.
But Kraftwerk... and so on. Point is, there is rarely one root of anything. You don't have to be a cultural relativist to notice that. And roots are one thing, adoption and appreciation of the cultural form in question are another. You could easily say that techno has been 'appropriated' and taken root in Europe, as opposed to the US. Also ask any trance/EBM fan and they won't see the connection to Detroit at all. And that's because there hardly is one. A lot of the euro-trance techno had it roots in psychedelic (white) rock/synth music not in black funk/soul.

Sorry for derailing a bit.
It's true that there was a separate EBM/new beat scene in the 80s that had very little connection to the trance/techno of the time. However, it was only when the records out of chicago and detroit started to land in Europe that belgian and german producers started to adopt a more techno sound, which later laid the basis for trance. Without chicago and detroit, Frankfurt and Brussels would have stayed with the EBM/wave scene. I know that in Frankfurt, there was actually quite a reaction of the classic EBM scene against the new techno-trance scene, they wanted to have nothing to do with it.

Now of course, how much "blackness" from detroit techno remains in euro-trance? That's a different question.
Mono-xID wrote:Just tell me where the fuckin' festival is...

(oh, and please don't book Sylva Rymd. Saw her playing twice and it can't get more boring as that. After 2 hours of boring droney graveyard techno I left the club. Where is the funk for fucks sake?)
I'm not into that sound at all but I know that a lot of people seem to love that shit :)
Last edited by dubdub on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

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If I listen to your tracks/mixes I don't give a single fuck if you're black white green or purple so once again, how is your ethnicity (as a music producer or dj) any relevant ?

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by The_G »

Er...worth pointing out that Detroit techno was made by black American dudes listening *both* to other black American dudes making funk with synthesizers, and white European dudes making new wave, krautrock, etc., also with synthesizers. The whole point of Detroit techno was mixing of the two aesthetics to make something new. Then other people--Joey Beltram (US), CJ Bolland (Belgium), UR (US), many others--mixed that and Chicago acid house and European EBM to make new, harder and more architectural forms of techno.

Detroit techno was the first techno, but it's not "purely black music," and none of the OGs in Detroit would claim it is. Techno has always been heterogeneous in what it is and what it draws on. It's a multicultural form of music, really.

In the 90s, when I used to know some of those dudes, they weren't pissed off about Europeans or white Americans making techno. They were pissed off about (a) people neglecting Detroit's role in the birth of techno, (b) people, largely in the US, assuming techno is white and European and not also black and American; (c) Detroit promoters booking shit white DJs from Florida and whatever, but not booking them in their hometown, and (d) some but not all of them were pissed off about guys from outside Detroit (like ITCHY Whoretits?) appropriating the Detroit label even though they aren't really from Detroit.

A lot of guys also looked down on some of the suuuuper white styles of music from Europe, but then you'd also hear Kevin Sanderson and others spin trance here and there. All of them used to spin European records.

Can't say what it's like now, granted. But that's the view from back when I was living there and active in the scene.

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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by Lost to the Void »

dubdub wrote:
Prophän wrote: I agree with most of what you said, but you seem to be missing the point as we're not discussing the origins of techno.

Let's make it clear, I will be more specific now : in 2018 how is the idea that you can just separate techno and racial identity bizzare, when I listen to a techno track, "where is this producer from" is not the first questions that pops in my mind, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for a lot of people.
Of course that's not the first question that pops into my mind but that doesn't render any questions of ethnicity irrelevant which is what was claimed in this thread.
chava wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Detroit is not the only root of techno.
But Kraftwerk... and so on. Point is, there is rarely one root of anything. You don't have to be a cultural relativist to notice that. And roots are one thing, adoption and appreciation of the cultural form in question are another. You could easily say that techno has been 'appropriated' and taken root in Europe, as opposed to the US. Also ask any trance/EBM fan and they won't see the connection to Detroit at all. And that's because there hardly is one. A lot of the euro-trance techno had it roots in psychedelic (white) rock/synth music not in black funk/soul.

Sorry for derailing a bit.
It's true that there was a separate EBM/new beat scene in the 80s that had very little connection to the trance/techno of the time. However, it was only when the records out of chicago and detroit started to land in Europe that belgian and german producers started to adopt a more techno sound, which later laid the basis for trance. Without chicago and detroit, Frankfurt and Brussels would have stayed with the EBM/wave scene. I know that in Frankfurt, there was actually quite a reaction of the classic EBM scene against the new techno-trance scene, they wanted to have nothing to do with it.

Now of course, how much "blackness" from detroit techno remains in euro-trance? That's a different question.
Mono-xID wrote:Just tell me where the fuckin' festival is...

(oh, and please don't book Sylva Rymd. Saw her playing twice and it can't get more boring as that. After 2 hours of boring droney graveyard techno I left the club. Where is the funk for fucks sake?)
I'm not into that sound at all but I know that a lot of people seem to love that shit :)

I wasn't even talking about ebm, which is industrial for kids.
I was more referencing early industrial, and even earlier stuff like Nick turner, musique concrete, Steve Reich even. A whole separate strain and path.
That was my way in to techno, Detroit was always irrelevant to me, I discovered it post having discovered techno and found its soulful niceness very.... Blah and not relevant to me.
Plenty of others came that path, it's taken a long time for that to fully realise itself, commercially, within techno.
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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by Hades »

[wesellboxes] wrote:
Prophän wrote:when I listen to a techno track, "where is this producer from" is not the first questions that pops in my mind, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for a lot of people.
This is quite true but in three pages of debate nobody mentioned it was black and latino gay clubs that got the ball rolling with all this, hence the associations.
I am absolutely shocked to see we're 3 pages in a topic from a guy asking for female DJ's,
and not one of us white male cunts have mentioned Stace.

Some of us here are suggesting we need more positive discrimination and we're not even positively discriminating our very own members here.
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Re: Technoacts that are not white males

Post by dubdub »

Lost to the Void wrote:
I wasn't even talking about ebm, which is industrial for kids.
I was more referencing early industrial, and even earlier stuff like Nick turner, musique concrete, Steve Reich even. A whole separate strain and path.
That was my way in to techno, Detroit was always irrelevant to me, I discovered it post having discovered techno and found its soulful niceness very.... Blah and not relevant to me.
Plenty of others came that path, it's taken a long time for that to fully realise itself, commercially, within techno.
Obviously that's another strain but without detroit, would that have ever led to what we now know as techno? I wasn't claiming some kind of linear monochrome history of techno but just that every strain of techno had to be infused with detroit directly or indirectly at some point to become techno.


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