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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Again

My argument is rather than get caught up in endless swamps of back peddling and trying to justify the use of clearly derogatory terminology (like you have) just avoid using it, it comes loaded with hate, intentional or not.

Why choose to use the language in the first place?
Doesn't matter how many Dave chappelle videos you throw up, it's still loaded.

And so are gay slurrs (again not sure anyone ever makes gay slurrs here, there is humour around sexual acts but it's not the same thing).

Like I said "gay" was a term I used to mean weedy or lame or whatever, and even though it was never meant that way, and have had gay and trans friends since waaay back when I used to kick about industrial, goth and fetish scenes, that word remained with me until it was pointed out what it really is loaded with, and my intent is not the end of the story.

Rather than arguing and quickly showing the person YouTube videos and any other way to justify my intent, I realised there is no argument, not really. It's more simple to adapt my language.
There is no real reason to be saying this shit.

Our language informs our thoughts etc....


Let's look at what you did.
It was a picture of a boat full of refugees.

To which you wrote "which one of those niggers are you?"

Even if it was humourous, it's pretty strange language to use no? Odd choice of words, of all the things you could have said.

Even if there was no Ill intent, clearly that sentence paired with that picture, is pretty fucking strange even for this place.

Why did you even go there?

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:06 pm 
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StacieAnne wrote:
Erm, that comment, I was talking from my perspective. I mean, how did you even think it was anything other than that? :chin:
.


well, there's a certain someone that recently told me something among the lines that she liked posting stuff just to see my reaction.
thought you would have seen this one coming as this time it was me just waiting for your reaction. ;)

StacieAnne wrote:
The way I see it is, if you are within that group and you want to use it in jest then it is perfectly fine, if you are not then it is something that I would personally, speaking for myself give it a wide swerve.


yes, speaking for yourself.
Speaking for myself, I like wrong jokes, I really do. Always have, always will.

My oldest recently told me "dad, why don't you ever laugh when I tell a joke"
and I had to explain to her that I usually just like really wrong jokes,
and that most 9 year olds just don't tell jokes like that.
So I had to give her some examples :
1. Why don't Turkish guys ever play hide and seek ?
Because nobody would want to go and find them.
(obviously you can change that to German, Belgian, Mexican, Portugese, Russian, hell whatever you want according to whatever sounds most funny wherever you live)
2. Why is it they don't do hand reading with gipsies ?
because they don't have a future anyway.
(again, you can just change the gipsy part to another part that sounds funnier depending where you live)

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:19 pm 
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Guys, this going nowhere. We all know want happend, we all have our ideas about it.

It was a poor choice of words, we've spoken our mind on the matter and Hades took notice of them. If you feel the need to eleborate your point of view om the subject, or educate your fellow musician here and there, do a skype call.

Lets not decay into the same state of 99% of the web.

This is a happy topic and should invite even the most newest of members to hang out.

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:51 pm 
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I'm in the midst of typing another reply to Void's answer.
but I do agree with what you said.

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Just to clarify some things, that picture I posted has nothing to do with refugees from the middle east (syria and irak), it's about moroccan people who embark in those rubber boat and try to get to europe because they're too lazy to work their asses off here and know that most of european countries will at least provide them with a decent level of money to have a normal life, I wasn't refering at all to the refugees because I don't know much about their situation a part from what we see in the media.

@Hades Now I feel offended because you called me arab :lol: the language we speak may be heavily influenced by arabic , but arabs in the middle east and "arabs" of the west (not arab at all but berber) are very different, you would have been closer if you said the spanish guy :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
My argument is rather than get caught up in endless swamps of back peddling and trying to justify the use of clearly derogatory terminology (like you have) just avoid using it, it comes loaded with hate, intentional or not.

Why choose to use the language in the first place?
Doesn't matter how many Dave chappelle videos you throw up, it's still loaded.


derogatory terminology ?
Man, talk about making a storm in a glass of water.

You pretty much called me gay (or acting/looking like one) when I said I used to have a bellybutton piercing,
literally laughing with it. Not that I even cared, but hey, just making a point.

I posted videos from Dave Chapelle and Louis CK
(the rest of the Louis CK sketch talks about using the cunt word btw, see below),
both sides trying to explain the issue and the word is just stupid and can made fun of.

Here's another thing I gave some thought about today :
we can all call each other cunts on subsekt all the time.
how do we know that nobody here gets insulted by using that word ?
I mean, I understand that it's a pretty common word in the UK, but it surely isn't in the US.
People actually can get seriously insulted when you use that word in the US.
Yet, we use that word here all the time.
Did we ever wonder if someone felt insulted ?
Nope, we just thought it was funny.
So here I am trying to justify myself to a bunch of white guys while the 2 colored guys that I directly used the word for didn't give a damn.
I'm sorry, but this sure as hell says a lot more about us, then it says about them.

Lost to the Void wrote:
And so are gay slurrs (again not sure anyone ever makes gay slurrs here, there is humour around sexual acts but it's not the same thing).

Like I said "gay" was a term I used to mean weedy or lame or whatever, and even though it was never meant that way, and have had gay and trans friends since waaay back when I used to kick about industrial, goth and fetish scenes, that word remained with me until it was pointed out what it really is loaded with, and my intent is not the end of the story.


actually, I think the humor around the sexual acts can be considered just as offensive for some people,
but that's not really the point here.
I just don't like you using the word slurs. It makes no sense in this context.

so yeah, here's the point I'm trying to make : if, apparently, people are offended by me using the word nigger (fuck me saying the "n word"), then I understand, and I apologize to every colored person, just like you were once told by a gay guy that the word was just too loaded. But up till now the 2 colored people I addressed didn't give a damn while all the white folks want to go berserk. This, somehow, feels wrong to me.

Lost to the Void wrote:
Rather than arguing and quickly showing the person YouTube videos and any other way to justify my intent, I realised there is no argument, not really. It's more simple to adapt my language.
There is no real reason to be saying this shit.

Our language informs our thoughts etc....

Let's look at what you did.
It was a picture of a boat full of refugees.

To which you wrote "which one of those niggers are you?"

Even if it was humourous, it's pretty strange language to use no? Odd choice of words, of all the things you could have said.

Even if there was no Ill intent, clearly that sentence paired with that picture, is pretty fucking strange even for this place.

Why did you even go there?


odd choice of words ? Plural ? the single word we are discussing here is me saying nigger, towards a person, who has most likely suffered some kind of racial shit during his life, and yet didn't seem to mind me using that word as a joke.
I honestly don't think any white person can say he feels insulted by me using that word. He or she can say he doesn't like someone else using the word, but that's it.

You are right though, there is no real reason to say this shit.
I just happened to think subsekt was a place where there was a certain form of free humor, since we seem to be using those punk rules for all other sorts of words, but I guess I was wrong.
I apologize to the people that can get offended by this.
I find this sad, that in this day and this age people aren't capable of seeing the word was used in a humorous manner and context, but yeah, I can understand they can get offended.
However, this is meant to anyone who can actually get offended by it, which means anyone who is not just white and might ever have suffered from racism in any form.

what a waste of time and words, really... :|

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Amon Derrich wrote:
Just to clarify some things, that picture I posted has nothing to do with refugees from the middle east (syria and irak), it's about moroccan people who embark in those rubber boat and try to get to europe because they're too lazy to work their asses off here and know that most of european countries will at least provide them with a decent level of money to have a normal life, I wasn't refering at all to the refugees because I don't know much about their situation a part from what we see in the media.


Thank you. I think it's important to make a distinction between economic refugees and war refugees.
But that's not the issue here.
I feel sorry for both, but there is a difference.

Amon Derrich wrote:
@Hades Now I feel offended because you called me arab :lol: the language we speak may be heavily influenced by arabic , but arabs in the middle east and "arabs" of the west (not arab at all but berber) are very different, you would have been closer if you said the spanish guy :lol:


I was only in Africa once, in Tunisia, and I remember a part of the population was berber.
I guess I just somehow assumed that the aggressive conquest nature of the Arabs during history would have made sure you guys were all Arabs by now.
My bad. But I know you can take that with a grain of salt, having a decent sense of humor and all. ;)
Are there actually no Arabs at all in your country ?

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Hades wrote:
I was only in Africa once, in Tunisia, and I remember a part of the population was berber.
I guess I just somehow assumed that the aggressive conquest nature of the Arabs during history would have made sure you guys were all Arabs by now.
My bad. But I know you can take that with a grain of salt, having a decent sense of humor and all. ;)
Are there actually no Arabs at all in your country ?


Long story short: North africa = Berber who think they are arab, genetical studies have shown that not more than 15% of the population is really arab, this is like saying india is a muslim country because 14% of its population is muslim


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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:03 pm 
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thank you for that info !

I was gonna say something about the biggest holocaust ever, happened in India, but maybe some other time,
things are heated enough already...

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:50 pm 
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When you're high AF and your white friend starts using the N word thinking it's cool
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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:31 am 
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That about sums it up, haha.

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:48 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:49 am 
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Alume wrote:
Lets not decay into the same state of 99% of the web.


Watching/reading this thread i smelt the fetid stench of decay some time ago.
It compliments the rigor mortis rather well.

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:38 am 
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g3_d9 wrote:
Alume wrote:
Lets not decay into the same state of 99% of the web.


Watching/reading this thread i smelt the fetid stench of decay some time ago.
It compliments the rigor mortis rather well.


Point taken, i wonder if we get free gas masks along the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Anyway, I don`t think anyone thinks you are racist.
Just maybe really really bad taste.

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:31 am 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
Anyway, I don`t think anyone thinks you are racist.
Just maybe really really bad taste.


We use the word cunt here all the time. Countries outside the UK might think this is very offensive. We don't seem to care. Some might consider this really really bad taste.
We make gay jokes here all the time. And no, I don't accept the answer that we only make jokes about sexual acts. This place has like 99.5% male members, so I find it hard to think that if we make jokes about anal sex all the time, it can't possibly be considered offensive to gays in some way. But we don't seem to care. Some might consider this really really bad taste.
I used the word nigger, and illustrated it why I find it funny by using other jokes using the word or laughing with racial situations.
Apparently I somewhere crossed a line and you people consider this really really bad taste.
I can accept that. I'm fine with it. I got the message. :idea:

Now I've always had a sick sense of humor and I can laugh with pretty much anything.
I also, as a white person (or at least that's what the official papers would say), have called my colored friends nigger on several occasions, including the situation above illustrated by that pic from Timbuys for example, and they've called me other stuff on countless occasions. We never had problems with that. Must be our really really bad taste, or maybe my taste in friends is just really really bad or something.
Or maybe it's because they knew there was never any bad intent happening. Like Louis CK says : there are no bad words, it's just when people start using them bad...

However, to me, I find it really really bad taste to see all these people who walk in, add nothing to the discussion,
but start posting pics of pop corn stuff. To me, that reminds me of those people who slow down on a highway to watch a car crash, or who come closer to start laughing with people who have a heated argument in a railway station or some other public place. They add totally nothing, they just want to say "hurray, here's entertainment".
Personally, I find that really really bad taste, but maybe that's just me, and I guess tastes must differ.

I've spent yesterday afternoon picking cherries and trying to comfort a 4,5 year old who's dad just hanged himself 2 days earlier. I've worked with kids from junkies or abusive dads before (her dad was an aggressive alcoholic), but I gotta say I was pretty speechless by the thought I was there with my 5 year old, and I had to think about what this kid saw just 2 days before. The guy literally called his ex, left her a voicemail saying "if you're not here in 2 minutes, I'll hang myself", and by the time she heard it and got herself over there with their daughter they were already too late.
I'm glad I was outside keeping the girl busy and not inside where the mother made my mrs listen to the voicemail.
Wouldn't have liked to have that shit inside my head, tbh.
But yeah, that's real life shit.

So you'll have to excuse me if I'd rather spend most of my time trying to help with situations like that instead of wasting any more words on this pointless internet argument.
My humble apologies if this is a major disappointment to those who kept coming back here for entertainment reasons only ! :idea:

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:42 am 
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FYI, cunt is an extremely offensive word in the UK too. Most people would consider it to be the 'worst' swear word I would say.

And for the record, I agree in principle with what you've written here about taking offence, the meaning of words etc though I don't think you've articulated your opinions in a particularly likeable way at times. But! I think the idea that you start throwing round words that carry such historical weight and meaning with total abandon and not expect bystanders to be curious is naive to be honest. Whether that's right or wrong is a separate issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:46 am 
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The power of humor is that you can say anything, no matter how ridiculous. The problem with humor is that some people are taking themselves far too serious to interpret it as humor.

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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:59 am 
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The thing about humour is that it has to be funny. I'd consider that to be a prerequisite.

Using words which have the capability to offend and and expecting them to be funny just because they can be offensive isn't enough IMO. That's like 5 year old kids sniggering about bums and willies. If shouting cunt and then laughing is humour to you, then I'd start trying a bit harder rather than just passing off your inability to make a decent joke as 'a twisted sense of humour'.


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 Post subject: Re: Subsekt summer meeting 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:07 am 
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TheBinaryMind wrote:
The power of humor is that you can say anything, no matter how ridiculous. The problem with humor is that some people are taking themselves far too serious to interpret it as humor.


Indeed. Kankerlekker my friend!

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