subsekt

So i have been Struggling making my Track Wide .especially the Low End. so today i used a Delay to widen my Sub Bass. because seems that Kick and the Sub was killing my Stereo Image. so the result ? awesome Wide Mix.
tested in my Car , shitty DJ speakers and seems that the Mono Signal is untouched.
I know my Noob experience keep telling me that is not the way to go , but why should i feel bad if the Sub sounds great in MONO. should i worry ? whats your opinions?

I think maybe have a look at the EQ and compressor you're using for the kick + sub. Shouldn't really need to have a delay on, and stereo 'widening' tools (aside from panning) tend to lose punch in my past experience.

Hmmmmm, Im not sure widening the low end is the best way to make a track wide. The stereo information, traditionally, is located from the mid-lows and up...... Vocals, bass, kicks, and snares also traditionally, sit in the middle.

Maybe look at some panning techniques and stereo effects that can give your track width. Also things like double tracking, using spreads and width functions on synths etc etc...

I personally think your problem must lie elsewhere, you should post a link to some of your stuff on here, and see if the guys on this forum can shed some light for you?

I'm not sure about low end and width either but what I will say is that I have read a lot of times on the Internet that everything below certain frequencies should be mono and rolled off below xHz, but I was watching a Timothy Alexander track the other day on a scope and he basically breaks both of those 'rules' and his tracks can sound amazing.

It's stereo all the way and gets louder all the way down to to 0Hz (I think my scope only goes down to 20Hz but his bass shows no signs of stopping)

It's refreshing to hear something awesome sounding that breaks some of the so called rules

The track I was listening to and watching is 'Untitled 1' from the DCR06 EP - http://soundcloud.com/timothyalexander/sets/untitled/

The whole mid/side stereo thing confuses the hell out of me if I'm honest. From what I've heard, most clubs only have a mono system anyway. I tend to keep all main track elements around the center and just have a slightly wider stereo image on background stuff. Basically, if I can listen to a track I've done back in mono and it still sounds good, then I'm happy. Time and time again after using stereo spreads and stuff, I'd see so many phase issues through a correlation meter that the mono mix would be fucked, I now sparingly use these effects. I'm guessing that a music tech course would be really beneficial for fully understanding this whole topic.

First Ask yourself does it still sound good (and with no phase cancellation issues) when your track is in mono.

If it does sound better with the stereo bass, and there are no issues when the whole mix is checked for mono compatibility then things are ok. If you think something sounds better then usually go with it. Its healthy to go with what you like and to experiment.

However - It's not that simple, as there are a few more variables to take into account.

You will most likely loose power, impact and (as Tim mentioned above) loose punch. Now, thats ok, I can personally live with loosing punch and power sometimes if it means I gain a more interesting sound... but this is also dependent on the mix/the track/etc in question. In audio engineering there are many times when you have to make a choice between one thing or another. In this instance we are loosing power and punch for a gain in width and perhaps some kind of openness - So its important to first know within yourself which of those two choices is suitable for the track. Is it a track aimed at "destroying the floor", if so then maybe stick to the tried and tested rules and keep it in the centre. But perhaps your writing something more experimental and contemporary without a care for the restrictions of what medium its heading for (for instance vinyl) or to where its to be listened to (a club for example). In this case just go for what makes your soul move man!

Personally I do mess with low end stereo often, however, usually (but not always) I will use something like iZotope Ozone's stereo imaging to mono all below around 200 HZ. Or maybe I will duplicate the sound and then split the frequencies so that I can process them independently (with the real subs mono)

This way one could have stereo width in the higher and more perceptible frequencies of the bass, whilst retaining central low(est) frequencies.

Often I will just do what I feel and experiment. I know the rules so I feel fine bending them, but, If Im writing "for the floor" (or whatever) then I will personally stick to mono bass.

There are good reasons in dance/club music why it may be wise to keep lows centered.

One reason is that most clubs have mono systems (or have a crossover below a certain frequency in mono). Even if the system is stereo then (in most situations) the Sub bins will be mono. So if you plan for your music to be heard primarily in a club then perhaps its best to indeed engineer for the club (and not for what sounds nice in the sweet spot in your studio).

Also if you intend a piece of music for vinyl, then know that vinyl has some restrictions; one of them being a problem with cutting out of phase bass (indeed with out of phase audio)... If you have things like bass panned left and right, or stereo widening, chorusing, flanging etc on the bass then it will make it difficult to cut the record with hot levels. If bass freq's aren't phase coherent then the groove will become narrower in these parts causing the stylus to more than likely skip.

S

Annnnnyways....

After saying all that, reading your original post and your comment - "been Struggling making my track wide", I think it would be wise to work on other areas in your track and frequency spectrum to adress this issue.

Perhaps something in the low mids if its a matter of the "thickness" of the stereo image. For example I will often double track (or something similar) lower ranged pads and soundscapes to "thicken up" the stereo image.

I don't widen anything, and in fact I now mono my kick drums and basses.
I find my mixes are more powerful and focussed that way.

I'm not sure if "most club soundsystems are mono" is true, in my experience of seeing club systems, helping set up soundsystems, etc, it's not the case. Seems to just be production rhetoric. It's true that the subs will be crossed over and mono'd at 100-200Hz though.

Interesting thread anyway, recently I've been comparing some of my tracks to professional productions and found that my bass sounds very "centred" because I put kick and bass mono and in the centre, compared to these pro tunes that seem to nicely cover the whole soundstage. I can get that in the high and mids using panning, delays, doubling, etc but I'm always reluctant to do any of that to my bass elements. Like others I've always been told stereo in bass is a no-no so I'm curious...

i think Faust's answer seems to be the most logical and relevant.

If you know the rules, you can break them

....and if you don't then more than likely you will break them, but it will sound shit

I always thought that this was a traditional thing linked to vinyl cutting
If it can be cut in the first place, the groove will 'wobble' causing the needle to jump.

The worst I've seen this was on an Oliver Lieb 'Black Series' track but I'm not sure if it was for the same reasons.
The stylus goes nuts.

youtu.be/Y4xfUNkE2LU

Faust wrote:Annnnnyways....

After saying all that, reading your original post and your comment - "been Struggling making my track wide", I think it would be wise to work on other areas in your track and frequency spectrum to adress this issue.

Perhaps something in the low mids if its a matter of the "thickness" of the stereo image. For example I will often double track (or something similar) lower ranged pads and soundscapes to "thicken up" the stereo image.

.
Thanks for the reply. Thought you said in your previous post. Sometimes we need to sacrifice part of their mix to enhance others. In my case after many test seems that the sub lost power at the same time work for my
Mix. Lol I.will reply.when over back home

mix. Since the Kick carries more color

What i would do is split the bass in 2 parts if you really want to have it stereo. keep the lower part mono, and layer it with the higher stereo part. some compression to glue it back together, voila. as some guys mentioned, you will loose too much power.

You can keep things interesting ánd powerful...

I would say that for a straight forward techno track you really should make sure that your sub bass, and your kick for that matter are bang in the middle. Sonically, things will get very cluttered if you deviate from this. And it makes a lot of sense for the rhythmic core or Your track ( the kick and bass) to be slap bang in the middle of mix, acting as the backbone/ foundation for everything else.

There is an historical reason as well as the experiential one , for the low end being mono and that is that the needle on a record player will jump out of the groove if it encounters any significantly panned low end frequencies.

Louis Fleet wrote:I
There is an historical reason as well as the experiential one , for the low end being mono and that is that the needle on a record player will jump out of the groove if it encounters any significantly panned low end frequencies.

great tip

Aline N wrote:

Faust wrote:Annnnnyways....

After saying all that, reading your original post and your comment - "been Struggling making my track wide", I think it would be wise to work on other areas in your track and frequency spectrum to adress this issue.

Perhaps something in the low mids if its a matter of the "thickness" of the stereo image. For example I will often double track (or something similar) lower ranged pads and soundscapes to "thicken up" the stereo image.

.
Thanks for the reply. Thought you said in your previous post. Sometimes we need to sacrifice part of their mix to enhance others. In my case after many test seems that the sub lost power at the same time work for my
Mix. Lol I.will reply.when over back home

mix. Since the Kick carries more color

Thats great that you made a decision that you are happy with, and one that was made after comparing the pros and cons. Sometimes it helps just to know the benefits and losses that a decision can bring, that way it's much easier to clearly see whats important for yourself in the given situation. Very glad to hear that you came to a decision that you feel was a positive for the mix *thumbs-up*