Meter strangeness

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
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HowieRis
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Meter strangeness

Post by HowieRis »

Not super urgent but I wonder if someone can help here.

This is a screenshot from today;

Image

Usually Youlean's true peak is comparable with Logic's channel max peak, Youlean is usually a little more conservative but always within .2dbFS of each other. I usually have to set the bx_XL V2's master out to almost -2db so that my mixes peak at about -0.2db which has always seemed a bit weird.

Recently, I have been able to set the limiter's output to -0.7db (a bit closer to what the manual suggests) to achieve a roughly similar true peak in Youlean (again, -0.1 to -0.3db), but as you can see from my screenshot, Logic is showing -3dbFS, this wasn't happening before.

I have made some effort lately to understand the limiter a little better... but I don't see how that could cause a difference in the readings like that.

Any ideas?

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Lost to the Void
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Re: Meter strangeness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Logic meters have long known to be sketchy.
I use bx-xl occasionally and have no trouble with setting output at -0.5db and having no trouble with Truepeak (within Sequoia) as the bx peakstop does its job well.
No idea about youlean in terms of reliability.
Maybe you are pushing your limiters too hard, this can cause problems with some meters especially regarding Truepeak readings.
Remember Truepeak is not the same as sample peak. If you are pushing your limiters hard then the waveforms are getting squared off heavily. Once D to A conversion happens through the reconstruction filter, those squared peaks will be rounded off. The bigger the squaring off - the larger the reconstruction filter peak recreation and therefore the higher the Truepeak value.

When you get real good with your production your limiters will barely be tickling the meters and Truepeak becomes a non issue.

As an asside, bx XL is not really a limiter to be used in every day master bus applications. It's quite aggressive and energetic in the way it works, which can be great, but for general level duties I wouldn't recommend it at all. It's a way of limiting tracks that need more life and fizz but it can ruin things with harmonic distortion.
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Re: Meter strangeness

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Lost to the Void wrote:Logic meters have long known to be sketchy.
I use bx-xl occasionally and have no trouble with setting output at -0.5db and having no trouble with Truepeak (within Sequoia) as the bx peakstop does its job well.
No idea about youlean in terms of reliability.
Maybe you are pushing your limiters too hard, this can cause problems with some meters especially regarding Truepeak readings.
Remember Truepeak is not the same as sample peak. If you are pushing your limiters hard then the waveforms are getting squared off heavily. Once D to A conversion happens through the reconstruction filter, those squared peaks will be rounded off. The bigger the squaring off - the larger the reconstruction filter peak recreation and therefore the higher the Truepeak value.

When you get real good with your production your limiters will barely be tickling the meters and Truepeak becomes a non issue.

As an asside, bx XL is not really a limiter to be used in every day master bus applications. It's quite aggressive and energetic in the way it works, which can be great, but for general level duties I wouldn't recommend it at all. It's a way of limiting tracks that need more life and fizz but it can ruin things with harmonic distortion.
Thanks for replying dude!

Yeah, I really haven't been fussing with the "XL" knobs that supposedly add harmonic content in the name of perceived loudness, and the manual seems to suggest pushing the plugin really hard. It talks about the peakstop meter being overworked when it shows gain reduction values of 3 or 4db, and the limiters themselves going a bit OTT at 6db of gain reduction or more. Now, to me that sounds like crazy amounts so I've been trying to keep the limiters grazing no more than 2db, and 1-2db for the peakstop. Maybe that's still too much. Does that sound OK to avoid those bigger D-A recreation peaks? Dynamic range feels OK to me at those levels and I'm not hearing any distortion when isolating the mid and side channels unless the release times are very short.

Can you suggest a better limiter for everyday stuff? I hoped this would be the limiter to end all future limiter purchases. :|

Hopefully soon my mixes sound loud enough without one!

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Re: Meter strangeness

Post by Lost to the Void »

I literally barely see the peakstop moving at all when I do use it. And rarely push the bands by more than a db (of course attack and release settings play in to this).
But really, don't be using this limiter for general duties. Even without the xl controls the limiter is FAR from being transparent.
Bx limiter is better suited to general use.
Or AOM invisible limiter.
Or Fab filters limiter
Or DMG if you want to go really far.

Or just use your DAW stock limiter.

You don't really need a superduper limiter unless you work in mastering. I very very rarely use or need a limiter in production.
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Re: Meter strangeness

Post by HowieRis »

Cheers,

bx_limiter is still on sale until tomorrow for $20 but it's still $20 more than I can ideally spare right now.

I think I'll just switch to using Logic's Limiter (sparingly) for a while and focus more on processing channels and groups, less on loudness.

I swear to god every now and again I really need this forum just to stop me barking up a tree like this and get me back onto the task of actually improving my production skills :lol: .

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Re: Meter strangenessh

Post by Lost to the Void »

I think your production technique will benefit wholeheartedly from controlling peaks and transients on a per channel/group basis. Not just you specifically but anyone who relies on a limiter to get level in production. With good technique you should be able to get your music to -13 to - 15 LUFS (more than enough to be loud and easily can be compressed and limited on the 2buss to go up another 2 units) whilst still retaining plenty of punch and snap.
Little shavings and cuts here and there on channels adds up to a nicer, more detailed mix than doing it all in one go with one limiter unit.
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Re: Meter strangenessh

Post by HowieRis »

Lost to the Void wrote:I think your production technique will benefit wholeheartedly from controlling peaks and transients on a per channel/group basis. Not just you specifically but anyone who relies on a limiter to get level in production. With good technique you should be able to get your music to -13 to - 15 LUFS (more than enough to be loud and easily can be compressed and limited on the 2buss to go up another 2 units) whilst still retaining plenty of punch and snap.
Little shavings and cuts here and there on channels adds up to a nicer, more detailed mix than doing it all in one go with one limiter unit.
I suspect you may be completely right.

Maybe I'll finish the next couple of tracks with very little / no limiting on the master and track the improvement over the next 10 or so pieces of music.


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