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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:31 pm 
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I'm not sure what these sharp transient tracks he's referring to are.....
But I would definitely go with people making music specifically for Fucktion 1 systems.
Fucktion 1 are seriously overhyped, but most people are used to shitty old club rigs, so they hear them and think they are amazing, when really it was all marketing.
F1 are low resolution. The mid range lacks detail.
They sound GREAT with low detail, minimal, punchy music. This is where techno went. Moronic tunes with no detail. But due to F1s sounding great with that, having fast transient performance......

Voids are much much better, especially the lows where they can take big sub and retain punch by splitting with their pistonic high bass driver and the big 21s in the sub boxes.

In fact lots of other rigs are much better.

I hate F1s. My music doesn't work on them, I like to use layers, detailed and layered mid range with stuff that interracts. And lots of deep sub with punchy high bass. Literally everything F1s suck at.

So yeah he is right about that, technically it is a thing a lot of engineers talk about.
Fuck F1 systems basically. They have contributed to the dumbing down of techno.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:04 pm 
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:lol: Fucktion 1

Berghain installing one probably was the best marketing they could have ever hoped for. But of course, that system only sounds good because of the room and the setup. For the same reason, all the Voids i've heard have been awful (especially the new Tresor system downstairs, dear god, that thing is an ear-raping abomination) because the techs were on crack or something.


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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Berghain stopped using Function One

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:20 pm 
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dubdub wrote:
the new Tresor system downstairs


Yeah the Void down at Tresor is a disaster, I have no idea how they managed (or who did) set it up.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:40 pm 
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Mattias wrote:
Berghain stopped using Function One


Huh? Did I miss something? I wasn't there that much this year but the last time I was there last month or so it was still the F1.

The system at the new Säule floor is a different manufacturer though, forget who.

Mattias wrote:
dubdub wrote:
the new Tresor system downstairs


Yeah the Void down at Tresor is a disaster, I have no idea how they managed (or who did) set it up.


It's bizarre, 5 years or so they had a system down there that was unremarkable but fine. Since then they "improved" it numerous times and it's just gotten progressively worse ever time. With the new system I can't last more than 5 minutes down there without feeling physical pain in my ears, even with earplugs, because the high mids are just so obscene.


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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:54 pm 
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dubdub wrote:
The system at the new Säule floor is a different manufacturer though, forget who..


Ah that's how it was then, my mistake.

dubdub wrote:

It's bizarre, 5 years or so they had a system down there that was unremarkable but fine. Since then they "improved" it numerous times and it's just gotten progressively worse ever time. With the new system I can't last more than 5 minutes down there without feeling physical pain in my ears, even with earplugs, because the high mids are just so obscene.


Maybe the people who currently run it run doesn't bother doing all they can do give deejays, artists and visitors a genuine, honest and proper feeling and showcase of Techno? I have no idea.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:07 pm 
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Mattias wrote:
dubdub wrote:
the new Tresor system downstairs


Yeah the Void down at Tresor is a disaster, I have no idea how they managed (or who did) set it up.


They simply run that thing waaaaay too loud.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Mattias wrote:
dubdub wrote:
The system at the new Säule floor is a different manufacturer though, forget who..


Ah that's how it was then, my mistake.

dubdub wrote:

It's bizarre, 5 years or so they had a system down there that was unremarkable but fine. Since then they "improved" it numerous times and it's just gotten progressively worse ever time. With the new system I can't last more than 5 minutes down there without feeling physical pain in my ears, even with earplugs, because the high mids are just so obscene.


Maybe the people who currently run it run doesn't bother doing all they can do give deejays, artists and visitors a genuine, honest and proper feeling and showcase of Techno? I have no idea.


I have seen multiple DJs on social media praise the system there. A lot of them don't seem to care at all as long as it's loud as fuck :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:56 pm 
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dubdub wrote:


I have seen multiple DJs on social media praise the system there. A lot of them don't seem to care at all as long as it's loud as fuck :lol:
[/quote][/quote]

Last time i was there i remember liking the sound. Was a little mid harsh but then again i was seeing Ansome and UVB who play pretty sonically aggressive stuff... i was also pretty twisted so i cant say my judgement was the best.. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:11 pm 
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I usually only use compression for creative effects or on audio material over which I otherwise have limited control (like recordings and loops). I try to fix issues in the mix as early in the chain as possible, and that's usually in the synth or sampler, with volume or filter envelopes. The next thing I'm going to write is going to be controversial, but I've never actually heard a compressor glue or gel anything, and the very terms themselves are super hand-wavey and esoteric to me. So I usually don't slap compressors on the sum or a bus for that sort of thing. Catching stray peaks is a job for a limiter in this house ;)

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:30 pm 
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wayfinder wrote:
The next thing I'm going to write is going to be controversial, but I've never actually heard a compressor glue or gel anything, and the very terms themselves are super hand-wavey and esoteric to me. So I usually don't slap compressors on the sum or a bus for that sort of thing.


that makes 2 of us.
I do once in a while put a compressor on a drum buss, but maybe once in every 15 tracks I make.
And yes, I do agree that the whole gel/glue idea sounds vague to me too.
In theory, I understand the idea behind it,
in practice I don't think I noticed it very often, and if I did, I doubt my own judgement.
Perhaps the results are more obvious through HW compressors, or when settings are more extreme, but yeah...

but I'm not at all a great user of compressors, so take my words with a Dead Sea of salt.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:42 pm 
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Hades wrote:
wayfinder wrote:
The next thing I'm going to write is going to be controversial, but I've never actually heard a compressor glue or gel anything, and the very terms themselves are super hand-wavey and esoteric to me. So I usually don't slap compressors on the sum or a bus for that sort of thing.


that makes 2 of us.
I do once in a while put a compressor on a drum buss, but maybe once in every 15 tracks I make.
And yes, I do agree that the whole gel/glue idea sounds vague to me too.
In theory, I understand the idea behind it,
in practice I don't think I noticed it very often, and if I did, I doubt my own judgement.
Perhaps the results are more obvious through HW compressors, or when settings are more extreme, but yeah...

but I'm not at all a great user of compressors, so take my words with a Dead Sea of salt.


Honestly man, it's your downfall. Your drums never sound a part of your tracks, it always sounds like an ambient track and then a drum track stuck together but not cohesively one. I would say a lot of your tracks lack the full techno feeling because the dynamics aren't controlled and the mixes aren't glued.

I know say you don't "like" compression or whatever. I think it's an excuse really. I don't think you know how to use it right. Just practice more.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:54 pm 
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I find it challenging to hear to adjust compression on single sounds to emphasize attack/transient or the body and not overdo it but I sidechain lots of things. Not just to the bassdrum. I find it really helpful to have 16th shakers, rides etc to be sidechained to the "main" drums (snare, offbeat hihat) to get the stuff sounding homogenous (is this an english word??). Less is more but I like it as an easy way to get the different things not to sound like a couple of instruments playing together but to make it roll. I am making techhouse / bassmusic so this might not be the solution to techno (or is it???) But it helps me not using loops but making my not so great programmed patterns work together much better.


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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
Hades wrote:
but I'm not at all a great user of compressors, so take my words with a Dead Sea of salt.


Honestly man, it's your downfall. Your drums never sound a part of your tracks, it always sounds like an ambient track and then a drum track stuck together but not cohesively one. I would say a lot of your tracks lack the full techno feeling because the dynamics aren't controlled and the mixes aren't glued.

I know say you don't "like" compression or whatever. I think it's an excuse really. I don't think you know how to use it right. Just practice more.


I just knew you were gonna chime in on this one. ;)

That's exactly what I said :
I don't use compressors very often (apart from side-chain compression) so don't take my word for it.
So I never said I am a master of compression.
It's just that I never felt inclined to use them a lot because I hate the über-compressed sounds of most tracks nowadays. The excuse is not that I probably don't know shit about compression (though obviously never like you),
it's that I only use the basics on my basic sounds, and for the rest never was interested in learning more than the side-chaining which I use all the time.
Trust me when I say it's a matter of preference and not a matter of laziness.

However, I don't agree with you when you say the dynamics aren't controlled.
I simply don't like going for a massively compressed sound. I prefer a lot of dynamics.
If you see this as dynamics that aren't controlled, then so be it.
I come from a classical background, and at least a few times a week I am amazed at how I moved from playing a piece, which means slowing down and speeding up many times during the performance, to making music with a(n almost) never moving tempo, and making sure there isn't too much velocity happening in whatever I just recorded,
even adjusting the notes so they fit just a little bit tighter to the grid.

I will always fairly admit I am no compressor expert,
but it simply doesn't interest me as this "always essential tool",
I don't care if my music sounds less "techno" (whatever that might be),
it's just what I like.
Maybe some day I'll be at your place and you'll spend a day showing me the miracles of compression,
and I'll suddenly see the light, but right now I don't see the use for the type of tracks that I make.

Tell you what, I'm willing to send you any track I did, and you can go wild on it with compression (just using Live's stock stuff now) and we'll use it as an example for the subsekt community.
Show me how you think it should be done when I send you the stems. :)
Worst case scenario, I get a better sounding track and I learn the errors of my ways... :) ;)

I never have a problem to admit when I was wrong about something. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Well, Hades my friend. You can achieve dynamics in different ways by controlling it. For example, when things sounds loose and not cohesive some dynamic control can actually "increase" the dynamic elsewhere in the contextual matter of the track.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Mattias wrote:
Well, Hades my friend. You can achieve dynamics in different ways by controlling it. For example, when things sounds loose and not cohesive some dynamic control can actually "increase" the dynamic elsewhere in the contextual matter of the track.


did you have the impression things didn't sound cohesive ?
You mastered 2 of my tracks, so I'd like to know.
(I really don't mind if the answer is "yes, it totally sucks")

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Well Steve pointed out a while ago just the thing about that it sounds like you made some beats and put an ambient piece over them instead of having both elements working together and create a unity. That's quite spot on. You have all to win to nail compression

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:40 pm 
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Hades wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:
Hades wrote:
but I'm not at all a great user of compressors, so take my words with a Dead Sea of salt.


Honestly man, it's your downfall. Your drums never sound a part of your tracks, it always sounds like an ambient track and then a drum track stuck together but not cohesively one. I would say a lot of your tracks lack the full techno feeling because the dynamics aren't controlled and the mixes aren't glued.

I know say you don't "like" compression or whatever. I think it's an excuse really. I don't think you know how to use it right. Just practice more.


I just knew you were gonna chime in on this one. ;)

That's exactly what I said :
I don't use compressors very often (apart from side-chain compression) so don't take my word for it.
So I never said I am a master of compression.
It's just that I never felt inclined to use them a lot because I hate the über-compressed sounds of most tracks nowadays. The excuse is not that I probably don't know shit about compression (though obviously never like you),
it's that I only use the basics on my basic sounds, and for the rest never was interested in learning more than the side-chaining which I use all the time.
Trust me when I say it's a matter of preference and not a matter of laziness.

However, I don't agree with you when you say the dynamics aren't controlled.
I simply don't like going for a massively compressed sound. I prefer a lot of dynamics.
If you see this as dynamics that aren't controlled, then so be it.
I come from a classical background, and at least a few times a week I am amazed at how I moved from playing a piece, which means slowing down and speeding up many times during the performance, to making music with a(n almost) never moving tempo, and making sure there isn't too much velocity happening in whatever I just recorded,
even adjusting the notes so they fit just a little bit tighter to the grid.

I will always fairly admit I am no compressor expert,
but it simply doesn't interest me as this "always essential tool",
I don't care if my music sounds less "techno" (whatever that might be),
it's just what I like.
Maybe some day I'll be at your place and you'll spend a day showing me the miracles of compression,
and I'll suddenly see the light, but right now I don't see the use for the type of tracks that I make.

Tell you what, I'm willing to send you any track I did, and you can go wild on it with compression (just using Live's stock stuff now) and we'll use it as an example for the subsekt community.
Show me how you think it should be done when I send you the stems. :)
Worst case scenario, I get a better sounding track and I learn the errors of my ways... :) ;)

I never have a problem to admit when I was wrong about something. :)



Not even talking about "massively compressed sound" Just basic cohesion and movement.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:45 am 
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Mattias wrote:
Well Steve pointed out a while ago just the thing about that it sounds like you made some beats and put an ambient piece over them instead of having both elements working together and create a unity. That's quite spot on. You have all to win to nail compression


What I wonder is if you're talking about all my rhythmic parts or if you're talking about some parts.
I use compression on my kicks, and I use it on my snares or claps,
I don't use it often on my percussion.

The usual working method is my melodic parts are done on a kick and then I add more rhythmic parts.
My rhythmic parts are my weak spot, I always knew that.
But you're suggesting I need to work with compression on a drum bus to make it all work better together ?
Give me some advice to try and I'll happily try it on my next project.

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 Post subject: Re: How often do you guys use compression?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:49 am 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
Not even talking about "massively compressed sound" Just basic cohesion and movement.


I can follow you on the cohesion, you did say that before and I understand what you mean.
but I think we understand different things with movement.
Please elaborate what you mean with movement being the result of me having to use more compression.

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