Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
nacorcb
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Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Hi all, new to Subsekt (and to music production).

I have a question: Why do most (if not all) commercially released Techno tracks (and other electronic music styles) clip above 0 dbFS?

Mastered tracks are supposed to avoid clipping, arent they? Every single track I load on my DAW clips, sometimes over 4 db above 0!

Is this supposed to be this way in modern Techno music? (I mean, mastering tracks ove 0 dB without caring about distorting badly).

Thanks in avance.

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Mattias
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Mattias »

Because mp3 encoding, what you're seeing is ISP. If mastering engineers were to provide their own encoded mp3s to stores like Beatport you would see less
ISP. Distribution companies and or Beatport and other stores uses subpar encoding algorithms for quick results and batch purposes. However, often a ceiling set to -0.3dBFS and ISP protection enabled it will often (though it may not be enough regardless) pass through their shitty encoding without clipping at the end. Some people prefer to set their ceiling to -0.1 dBFS and that's generally speaking not enough.
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nacorcb
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Thans for your answer Mattias.

I was aware about ISP and the safe -0.3dBFS rule when mastering to avoid clipping after encoding to mp3, but didnt know about some companies using subpar encoding that produces ISP clipping, even with properly mastered tracks.

Still, the amount of clipping I am noticing is huge; 3, 4, even 5 dB above 0! Its crazy stuff, is this really the result of subpar encoding or there is something more behind the curtain?

My main problem with this is when I try to match this crazy loud level with my tracks, but at the same time applying the -0.3 dBFS rule. The result is an overcompressed turd.

I can match same LUFS levels, but the dinamic range is completely squashed.

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Mattias
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Mattias »

Well there are of course faux mastered releases out there and it's most likely those that show you clips of +4dB over full scale (holy shit!).
I'm just making assumptions though but I have a hard time believing it's from serious labels, which tracks, if you wanna say, clips like this?
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Lost to the Void
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Lost to the Void »

I always go -0.5 for super safety squirrel, and have not had problem with beatcrap conversion.
I always supply clients with proper mp3s if they want em too, but unfortunately not all aggregators and stores accept them.
It's a shitter.
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Lost to the Void »

nacorcb wrote:
My main problem with this is when I try to match this crazy loud level with my tracks, but at the same time applying the -0.3 dBFS rule. The result is an overcompressed turd.

I can match same LUFS levels, but the dinamic range is completely squashed.
The problem is trying to match these levels.
It takes a fair bit of work for a mastering engineer to get things to the disgusting levels you are talking about. If you really want to go down that road and still have some semblance of punch and dynamic, then go to a good engineer, otherwise don't play that game any more.

Gain compensation has been rolled out in pretty much all online streaming sources now, YouTube, Spotify, iTunes etc et.
This has been the final nail in the coffin for the loudness war.
I've seen levels come down in the last 2 years.
Techno at its worst was getting up to _4 RMS

The standard for a while was around -6

Now we are seeing a lot more openness. Well mastered well produced stuff is coming in averaging -8 ish. And I am mastering to around this level for dance music and rarely getting asked to take it louder, I barely have to use limiting other than for protection, almost everything can be done with compression now. I'm almost at the stage where if I am doing vinyl mastering, there is not much difference between the levels of the vinyl pre's and the digital destination masters I supply clients.
It's looking possible that in a year or two I might just be able to supply 1 set of masters for clients to use digitally and for cutting.
The only exceptions seem to be when I deal with US style EDM where they still want sausage mastering, and generic beatcrap techno who want the same, but I don't master too much of that luckily.
Times are a changing, and it's all for the better (well, apart from automated mastering which is pulling down audio fidelity, but that is another discussion)

Essentially don't worry about your final level. -12 to -10 RMS is a decent final level to get to, plenty loud enough for listening and to get a powerful punchy mix.
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Thanks Voidloss, another great post of yours.

I am practicing mastering just for the f. of it. I have an analytic brain and I enjoy fiddling with numbers, graphics, meters etc more than with the creative process of music production.

If I were jounger, I would have learned sound engineering professionaly. But Im old and deaf :-P

I thought I could use reference tracks as a mastering guide but now everything is confusing. It seems some labels/engineers break good practise rules as an standard behaviour.

Oddly, some tracks I have analyzed have proper dynamics (-6 to -8 dB RMS) but clip like hell. I guess I have to change my references...

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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Mattias wrote:Well there are of course faux mastered releases out there and it's most likely those that show you clips of +4dB over full scale (holy shit!).
I'm just making assumptions though but I have a hard time believing it's from serious labels, which tracks, if you wanna say, clips like this?
Most labels if not all!

Tulipa Recordings
Phobic
Fierce Animal Recordings
Unity Records
Stil Vor Talent
Truesoul, Tronic, Toolroom, Bumload crap :-P

Take for example Marc Marzenit - Perron (Tronic). This track is far from being a hard techno one, but still it peaks at a whooping +3,40 dBFS. Its crazy.

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Lost to the Void
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Lost to the Void »

nacorcb wrote:Thanks Voidloss, another great post of yours.

I am practicing mastering just for the f. of it. I have an analytic brain and I enjoy fiddling with numbers, graphics, meters etc more than with the creative process of music production.

If I were jounger, I would have learned sound engineering professionaly. But Im old and deaf :-P

I thought I could use reference tracks as a mastering guide but now everything is confusing. It seems some labels/engineers break good practise rules as an standard behaviour.

Oddly, some tracks I have analyzed have proper dynamics (-6 to -8 dB RMS) but clip like hell. I guess I have to change my references...

You might also want to check the reliability of your meter, and how you are using it.
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Lost to the Void wrote:
nacorcb wrote:Thanks Voidloss, another great post of yours.

I am practicing mastering just for the f. of it. I have an analytic brain and I enjoy fiddling with numbers, graphics, meters etc more than with the creative process of music production.

If I were jounger, I would have learned sound engineering professionaly. But Im old and deaf :-P

I thought I could use reference tracks as a mastering guide but now everything is confusing. It seems some labels/engineers break good practise rules as an standard behaviour.

Oddly, some tracks I have analyzed have proper dynamics (-6 to -8 dB RMS) but clip like hell. I guess I have to change my references...

You might also want to check the reliability of your meter, and how you are using it.
I am using Live 9 channel ones. I will check in few other DAWs and let you know.

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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Lost to the Void »

Yeah, not an accurate way to check for digital overs by any means. I suspect this is the issue, because no way do I think +3 db clip is common. Properly mastered techno always shows as clipping in ableton if channel and master is set to 0 with no plugs. I've checked stuff I have mastered myself that has been done super safe, and ableton says it is clipping.
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Lost to the Void »

Also worth pointing put that logics own meters are also inaccurate to about 1db, it's a well known issue.
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Ok, done few testing.

I am shocked, Live 9 reads are completely different from other DAWs (Cubase and Studio One tested).

Not only channel meters read, but vst plugins also!

For example, using the same audio file for reference (a mastered mp3 track), with bx Meter you have 0 dB peak on Cubase and Studio One, but in Live it clips over 0 dB.

Same with Izotope Insight, the reads are different. In Cubase and Studio one it reads 0 dBFS but in Live 9 it clips over 2,50 dBFS.

Wow, I didnt know this. So the problem is not in the mastered tracks, the problem is Live 9.

I have learnt something important today...

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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Mattias »

Yeah proper metering is everything and most DAWs doesn't provide that....Crazy I know.
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by HowieRis »

Lost to the Void wrote:Also worth pointing put that logics own meters are also inaccurate to about 1db, it's a well known issue.
No way, there I was getting confused having to set my limiter to like -2db so that Logic's Multimeter showed a half sensible max peak. So RMS would be exaggerated by about the same amount you reckon?

I knew I should have bought the bx_meter while it was 40 odd quid the other week! Can't fork out the hundy right now :(.

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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Mattias »

HowieRis wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Also worth pointing put that logics own meters are also inaccurate to about 1db, it's a well known issue.
No way, there I was getting confused having to set my limiter to like -2db so that Logic's Multimeter showed a half sensible max peak. So RMS would be exaggerated by about the same amount you reckon?

I knew I should have bought the bx_meter while it was 40 odd quid the other week! Can't fork out the hundy right now :(.
Always use non-DAW based meters if you want or are in need of accurate numbers. This is another good reason to never be in too-hot-signal territory.
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Ok I took a pair of pictures.

I loaded same commercially mastered mp3 track in both Cubase and Live 9, and inserted Melda Production MLoudnessAnalyzer (BTW, a great free plugin!).

Cubase Elements 9:

Image

Ableton Live 9:

Image

So, it seems Cubase reads are correct, but Ableton Live 9 adds a whooping 4 dB above 0. And this is shown in both channel fader meter and every VST plugin.

This is serius crap. For me, it means that mastering in Live 9 is a no-no.
Last edited by nacorcb on Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by Mattias »

Woah that's crazy.
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nacorcb
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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Mattias wrote:
HowieRis wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote:Also worth pointing put that logics own meters are also inaccurate to about 1db, it's a well known issue.
No way, there I was getting confused having to set my limiter to like -2db so that Logic's Multimeter showed a half sensible max peak. So RMS would be exaggerated by about the same amount you reckon?

I knew I should have bought the bx_meter while it was 40 odd quid the other week! Can't fork out the hundy right now :(.
Always use non-DAW based meters if you want or are in need of accurate numbers. This is another good reason to never be in too-hot-signal territory.
Problem is, it seems any meter you insert in Live 9 also misleads the reads :!:

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Re: Commercial Techno releases and clipping

Post by nacorcb »

Oh, I forgot to say, I exported a wav file from Live 9 that clipped the master channel and then loaded into Cubase.

No clip at all.

So it seems Live 9 mislead the reads but doesnt really change the levels. This is still a problem because I guess that if you master a track in Live 9 aiming to 0 dBFS it will sound quieter than the same track mastered in Cubase or any other DAW that has a proper meter reading.


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