mixing / overall loudness

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over9000
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mixing / overall loudness

Post by over9000 »

Suuup cuntz!

i have a question about mixing and generall loudness itb. basically how do you achieve so much loudness?
my mixes are always so low in volume.
iam sure this question has been asked a million times, but i couldent seem to find any thread quickly.
do you guys leave more headroom on the single channels, so you can turn up the master more later?
surely this is something very simple, depending on some factors that i dont grasp at the moment..
soo could someone please slap it in my face quickly :mrgreen:

how do you approach this?

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jordanneke
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by jordanneke »

I always mix so the output on the master is -6db. I use the metering plugin Levels to help.

Then I add a simple volume utility from Ableton to bring up the volume as long as nothing is in the red.

Or when I convert to MP3 from wav using audacity, I use the amplify function.

buffered
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by buffered »

kick at about -14db. mix around this. make room for elements with eq. get the whole mix peaking at -6 then whack a limiter on the master with ceiling 0f -.1

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by Hades »

I just try to make sure the maximum level of my mixes is somewhere between -12dB and -6dB,
and then I export using the "normalize" function in Live.
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HowieRis
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by HowieRis »

Have you read Voidloss' threads on mix bus processing?

18 months ago when I picked up producing again volume was a definite concern, everything I made felt about half the volume of proper released material, pretty disheartening.

I read through everything I could get my head around in the classics subforum on here, started choosing/making sounds much more carefully with mix balance in mind, watching out for any severe resonances, using compression to tame harsh transients and basically just following all the advice on the home "mastering" and mix bus compression threads.

I still have a shitload to learn but now I'm naturally getting to like -8db RMS without sacrificing much dynamic range which feels fine for an ITB bedroom effort at this stage and stands up a lot better against stuff in my iTunes library.

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ZenoSupreme
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by ZenoSupreme »

i mix it at the loudest level possible (the point where it still sounds good, if i would turn it louder it will sound crap), than I export it and use adobe audition to maximize the volume.

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by dippy egg »

Saturation.

Saturate your sounds and you'll find the perceived volume to increase whilst the peak level on the VU meter decreases. This allows you to turn up the volume of your tracks and get even more volume as you take advantage of the extra headroom.

Just do a little experiment... Make a quick drum loop and bounce it to audio. Then saturate the kick, snare, etc but make sure the level of the saturated sounds peak to the same level. You could even saturate the whole drum group together, again compensating the output to peak at the same level. Now bounce this to audio too. When you play back the two audio clips you should notice that whilst both show the same level on the vu meter the saturated one should be noticeably louder. This is because you have reduced the dynamic range, making the sounds fatter without the same 'shaping' of the sound like using a compressor would do.

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by dippy egg »

However, over doing this can make your mixes sound too dense

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Lost to the Void
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

Read the tutorials on this site. Read the sub forum. Everything you need to know is there.
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by sergiobR1 »

U need to use the search button.


Some kind of pre master chain would be: EQ> Saturator/overdrive/analog colour> Compressor> EQ> Maximizer.

I suggest you to use the search for more info..
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by WOLF! »

sergiobR1 wrote:Some kind of pre master chain would be: EQ> Saturator/overdrive/analog colour> Compressor> EQ> Maximizer.

I suggest you to use the search for more info..
I think that EQ'ing before the compressor is not a good idea.
Making EQ changes can change the way your compressor reacts.

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Lost to the Void
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

sergiobR1 wrote:

Some kind of pre master chain would be: EQ> Saturator/overdrive/analog colour> Compressor> EQ> Maximizer.
.
Don't want to come across bitchy here but...

That is really bad advice, and I suggest people disregard it.

If you are mixing properly then just sit a compressor (and maybe some mojo like saturation) over your master channel.
Mix in to your compressor from the beginning and you shouldn't need any mastering EQ ESPECIALLY not two of them.
You don't really need a limiter/maximises either, unless you want to protect from clipping, but no need to drive in to it.

If you notice any problem with your mix that require adjustment in EQ terms then find the offending bus or channel and eq directly there.
EQ on the master bus is one of the most destructive things you can have on the master channel, a mere 1/4dB gain change with a medium to narrow Q can cause big mix changes.
It makes no sense either. If you can identify a problem in the mix then fix it in the mix, it will always always always be less damaging and far preferable.
Mastering engineerstudio have to deal with EQ on the 2 buss as it is the nature of the job and we have our choice, but it is always done carefully and do with the knowledge that we are making destructive compromises.

Though I have written a guide to home maximisation, a good mix should already be nearly there anyway. Getting to -10 even -8 rms can be done with good mix technique and still have a punchy full range mix with plenty of air. Everyone should aim for that.
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by rktic »

What Steve says.

To extend on that: the thing that my sound and especially the energy/loudness improved the most from was getting rid of anything on the master bus. It's such an easy thing to throw in some compressors there. However, it comes with a number of issues. The most important one: you instantly get used to it. Especially when it has more than a subtle impact on your sound.

There are other ways to get that grind and pumping in your tracks while preserving dynamics and overall easier maintanance of your mix. The most simple one imho is a bit of parallel processing on a few busses. Like driving your drums through a 2nd bus with lots of saturation/distortion and blending in the signal just a tiny bit. 2-5% are probably enough already. Instead of applying compression, use something like Ableton's Utility or Cableguys Volume Shaper to duck the channel a little bit with every kick (please avoid linear curves, it's just not musical). Much easier to maintain then dealing with dynamic processors, especially if you're a bit inexperienced with those.

One of the most common mistakes for getting more loudness and energy I see is people adding more and more low end. Even if it feels counter intuitive: loudness derives from anything above the low end. The more you crank up anything below 60-80hz the more overall headroom for perceived energy you're stealing from your track. Finding the sweet spot for rolling off the kick between 30-60hz with an EQ can do magic to a muddy track. Helping it to open up all at once.

Really loud sounding, yet still kicking tracks derive from many tiny things. And they don't need to be driven that much on the master anymore.

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by over9000 »

buffered wrote:kick at about -14db. mix around this. make room for elements with eq. get the whole mix peaking at -6 then whack a limiter on the master with ceiling 0f -.1
thats it, i was mixing at around -10.
this helped me getting the whole mix louder, ofc theres a lot to learn about mixing in general and how to get it balanced right. At the moment iam just happy to finish tracks, that sound "ok". everything else will come with experience i guess.
thanks for all the additional info void & rktic
interesting thoughts about compression on single channels, i use sidechain a lot with abletons stock compressor. might try some volume automation instead and hear the difference.

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by Lost to the Void »

rktic wrote:What Steve says.

To extend on that: the thing that my sound and especially the energy/loudness improved the most from was getting rid of anything on the master bus. It's such an easy thing to throw in some compressors there. However, it comes with a number of issues. The most important one: you instantly get used to it. Especially when it has more than a subtle impact on your sound.

There are other ways to get that grind and pumping in your tracks while preserving dynamics and overall easier maintanance of your mix. The most simple one imho is a bit of parallel processing on a few busses. Like driving your drums through a 2nd bus with lots of saturation/distortion and blending in the signal just a tiny bit. 2-5% are probably enough already. Instead of applying compression, use something like Ableton's Utility or Cableguys Volume Shaper to duck the channel a little bit with every kick (please avoid linear curves, it's just not musical). Much easier to maintain then dealing with dynamic processors, especially if you're a bit inexperienced with those.

One of the most common mistakes for getting more loudness and energy I see is people adding more and more low end. Even if it feels counter intuitive: loudness derives from anything above the low end. The more you crank up anything below 60-80hz the more overall headroom for perceived energy you're stealing from your track. Finding the sweet spot for rolling off the kick between 30-60hz with an EQ can do magic to a muddy track. Helping it to open up all at once.

Really loud sounding, yet still kicking tracks derive from many tiny things. And they don't need to be driven that much on the master anymore.

I would add one of THE biggest problem areas everyone seems to have that makes their tracks muddy and eats up level is not the subs at all but the high bass.
150 - 400 hz. 9 times out of 10 I am pulling back and cleaning up a track in this area when mastering. When I do, it give the mid range much more clarity and detail, the kick pops out, the bass becomes more defined and I can get another 1/2 a dB to a whole in final level with no problems. It's generally quite transformative what I can do to a track by pulling back a half dB here.

To combat this in production people need to be more careful with how much sub 4-500 hz their sounds have, and how many sounds sit in this area.
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by Mattias »

The 150-500hz is a fucker for sure. Tons of people make things very thick there. When that area is done right it can be wonderful
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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by winston »

rktic wrote:
duck the channel a little bit with every kick (please avoid linear curves, it's just not musical).
sorry for the stupid question, but what do you mean by linear curve? a straight line, or a curve?

i use LFO tool to duck to leave the kick space because it is easier to setup in logic than side-chaining a compressor and this gives you a curve as default which i mess around with.

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by winston »

Lost to the Void wrote:

I would add one of THE biggest problem areas everyone seems to have that makes their tracks muddy and eats up level is not the subs at all but the high bass.
150 - 400 hz. 9 times out of 10 I am pulling back and cleaning up a track in this area when mastering. When I do, it give the mid range much more clarity and detail, the kick pops out, the bass becomes more defined and I can get another 1/2 a dB to a whole in final level with no problems. It's generally quite transformative what I can do to a track by pulling back a half dB here.

To combat this in production people need to be more careful with how much sub 4-500 hz their sounds have, and how many sounds sit in this area.
Philippe Zdar from Cassius said that the only thing below 400Hz should be your bass.
while this is a overly dogmatic sounding rule, it's something i keep in mind and try to work to, but eqing sounds to take away what is below 400Hz often makes them too thin. but i do find it a good starting point with a sound when going through the process.

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by Prophän »

I have one question mix wise, is it really necessary to mix your kick at -14db and your whole mix at -6db, I mean is it necessary to stick to these values, because at the moment I just go for what sounds right to me without worrying that much about the levels, as long as it's not clipping

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Re: mixing / overall loudness

Post by dippy egg »

It's not vital to stick to -14db but you need to be careful that the signal in the channels isn't too hot because when you group them, to the drum bus for example, and you are clipping when all instrument are summed then you will have to adjust the mix to compensate. Pulling the bus fader down won't help here because the clipping is occurring at the input stage, not the output. I always set the gain of my channels to peak at -18db just out of habit and I never clip the bus. If it needs more volume then its much easier to do this then it is to remix a clipping bus.

As for the mix bus... Going no higher than -6db ensures that there is enough headroom for the mastering engineer to work their voodoo magic. Once again, pulling the master fader down won't help if you are going over this/clipping. Always keep your master fader at 0db!!! If you are too hot then you need to adjust the mix going in to the mix bus.

When working in a DAW then signal to noise ratios aren't a problem so if you are unsure then aim for low levels and turn the volume up on your monitors. It's much easier to boost a low signal than it is to adjust your entire mix.


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