Sonarworks - not feeling it?

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Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by dubdub »

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Since I've heard good things about Sonarworks here and elsewhere I orderd one of the reference mics to test it out and this is the curve I got for the room correction - is this kind of thing normal? My room is about 20 sqm and my monitors are close to a window and a wall. What it does is essentially make the whole mix more subby (I thought my KRKs were bass-y?) by adding some lowend and really killing the mids. I don't really like the way it sounds - like someone put a weird filter on the mix (which I mean, is essentially what it does). Has anyone else had a similiar experience? Thinking about sending it back. The headphone plug is less obstrusive and seems to just add a bunch of sub on my Sennheiser HD650s. If I'm not feeling it, it's probably a better idea to send it back and get some cheap bass traps, no? (I can't afford extensive room treatments, hence why Sonarworks was attractive to me in the first place...)

For the record, here's my room (the red squares are my monitors) - http://imgur.com/a/VlYsB

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Lost to the Void »

The thing is, it`s going to sound weird if you only just used it, you need time for your ears to acclimate.
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

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Sure, I'm just not entirely sure if it's really that much more accurate - the guy in the acoustics blog that was linked here a few days ago said that correction softwar is essentially useless since the room problems are time and not frequency based. Not sure who's right in that situation. Also, switching from listening to producing feels very weird, I'd have to leave the systemwide thing on at all times and having a permanent filter on everything that comes out of my speaks just feels a little weird to me. I've gotten to the point where generally, if it sounds good on monitors, it's going to sound good on headphones and often (though not always) vice versa. Again, maybe I'm not used to it enough but with the EQ correction the two sound way different.

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Mattias »

Well you can't expect a software like that to solve your issues. It's a thing to use when you already got much treatment to do most work, it's only for minor corrections.
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

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Mattias wrote:Well you can't expect a software like that to solve your issues. It's a thing to use when you already got much treatment to do most work, it's only for minor corrections.
I was actually expecting it to be more subtle - it's pretty drastic in the low-mids. But I personally don't feel like the lowend has gotten tighter or anything, if anything it feels less controlled since it drastically boosts the subs.

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Mattias »

Of course, it will attempt to adjust more aggressively the more errors the room suffers from. The better room the less correction is needed which is what you aim for. A few dips to take care of stubborn modes in a well treated room is the proper usage of this software. Fixing things like SBIR for example wont work.
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Lost to the Void »

Regardless, it`s very hard to make any judgement about it until you have spent a decent amount of time with the correction.
It`s no difference to buying new monitors. It takes your ears ages to get used to them.
But yeah, major corrections are not the best idea with software like this..
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by mathias »

In my case, i have bought the sonarworks mic to try the demo and i quite liked the results at first, but i have to say that one of my speakers got a little bit damaged and now distorts in bass heavy tracks by using the correction curve with many sub (What isn't supposed to use in a 7` monitors)..
I don't know if u checked it, but you can choose how down the frequency range will be covered after the correction!
Nowadays im not using it anymore because i don't like the latency and im using some analog gear, so im producing ALWAYS without sonarworks, it was good to show me where my room have problems, and then i know this in the production stage (Like in your case that is same as mine, you have many low mids, so your ear would want to cut that low mids and your track would sound weak/with less punch in that range...)
Also its crazy to want a software to solve ALL your room problems btw, make no sense really)
And on headphones i like it quite more and I've been using after mix and after maximize my tracks to check how the low end is going..
In both corrections, i feel a thing that i don't like in sonarworks, it somehow soften the transients a bit and sound more creamy , idk if thats good because i never heard a correctly treated room, someone with more experience could say a bit if the sound on a treated room is softier and less transient hard)

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Mattias »

Oh yes, very important thing is to check if you used the mixed filter setting (IIR & FIR) and just set it to the IIR. The FIR one messes a lot with transients if the software attempts to correct too much. The IIR works ideal for the low end.
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

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Lost to the Void wrote:Regardless, it`s very hard to make any judgement about it until you have spent a decent amount of time with the correction.
It's the software burning in. Audio science.

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by WOLF! »

dubdub wrote:the guy in the acoustics blog that was linked here a few days ago said that correction software is essentially useless since the room problems are time and not frequency based.
That's exactly why I posted the link. In my opinion (and quite basic knowledge of acoustics) that kind of software is rather for small frequency corrections in a (well) treated room. You can't expect that software fixes reverb time issues otherwise it wouldn't be necessary to treat your room.

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

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Mattias wrote:Oh yes, very important thing is to check if you used the mixed filter setting (IIR & FIR) and just set it to the IIR. The FIR one messes a lot with transients if the software attempts to correct too much. The IIR works ideal for the low end.
I'm guessing you are talking about the mimimum vs. linear switch? I had it set to mixed since that's the default. Which is one is FIR and which one is IIR?

I just saw it also had the low freqs set to "extended". Will test again with a neutral setting. And maybe setting the correction to max 6db will make it sound a bit more neutral?

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Mattias »

Yeah set to minimum phase, that's right. Max 6dB will definitely sound more natural. Any idea how many boosts you have? Those are the worst really
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

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The speaker correction curve with minimum Phase/Neutral/6db. That's a lot of boosting :?

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Mattias »

Seems like it.
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by arkos »

I don't agree about it can only do minor corrections, I can actually mix ok in a room that is almost a perfect square and the only placement in the room I can use is a corner plus there is basically zero room for treatment.

Without Sonarworks the sound is just plain fucked, bass is so uneven that you can't really distinguish the low end of tracks its just a big woolly mess and mixing in here is a complete nightmare.

With it you can hear the low end just fine and tracks translate pretty well to other playback devices.
It's a godsend and I couldn't be happier with how it works for me in this horrendous room...

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by Lost to the Void »

Well the problem is, that large EQ diversions have unavoidable artefacts. If you can live with them, fine, let`s see what your mastering engineer has to say about that side...

It`s not that it can`t make large corrections, it`s just that it is best not to. This is really room tuning software, not room fixing software, and of course it doesn`t deal with time domain problems.
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by kostas »

i ve been using the software enough time now and I ve tried it with different combinations of treatment. here is my opinion.
the graph that dubdub posted looks like a stock exchange graph in free fall. thats not the best graph for a room measurement.
a value of more than 6 db it is really an indication of major problem in a room. 6 db of nodes and standing waves. as others said
it s the combination of treatment and the software that makes it useful. as all things in mixing there is no gold gear/tip/software
but rather the right implementation of all those things.
in this specific measurement there is a huge elephant in the room sitting from 100hz all the way to the mids . you can even see his
back and his head! to break the shape of the elephant and finally get him out of your room you need to have your speakers right in
front of basstraps. and i dont mean the 8 cm foam things that are being sold in the market. but fat rockwool corner basstraps that
goes far above and beyond your speakers. ideally floor to ceiling. super easy to make yourself and not that pricy. just by that your
elephant will start to be shorter and his head will start moving up higher to the mids freeing your bass area.
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this is my graph after I added floor to ceiling diy basstraps. you can see that the elephant is small with a 5.5 db of attenuation i at 200hz.
the software is so accurate that you can see the dip that was formed only on the right channel right below 100hz because of 1 meter of space
that i had left uncovered at the time of measurement.
so, i think that making the measuring line hovering above and below zero with a maximum of 6db is very crucial for the software to be realistically
effective. and even after that keep your output mix knob around 80%. And of course keep always on the ''avoid clipping'' switch. adding 12 dbs of
bass after a bypass can send your speaker for recyclement.
now for the hype sound that you said you re hearing maybe you re hearing the bass sitting i an more subtle position after the correction and this
way it can really make it sound lacking, particularly if you ears have been tuned to the sound before the correction, and your monitors cannot
go down low enough to hear the actual correction. you know the thing when you try to make a boomy sound but in reality if you hearing it it s already enough.
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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

Post by dubdub »

The hyped sound I'm talking about is a massive +5db bell around 50-80hz, you can clearly see it in the correction only graph. What does your correction graph look like now?

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Re: Sonarworks - not feeling it?

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this is the graph both lines included. and i think that this correction is pretty much ok.
i said it before use the mix knob at 80%. or find your perfect spot.
and of course when i started using it my lows were a mess. it takes a fair amount of time as always to understand
how it translates on an actual sub. i m not saying that I m nailing it every time but it is certainly giving an decent idea of the subs and lows.
it is a hard learning curve. at least for me that I m not an audio ninja.
but I wouldn t go back not using it. so give it enough time thats my point
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