Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

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Mattias
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Mattias »

I understand your points there but isn't it full of assumptions rather then actual certainty? Besides what applies to some of us doesn't necessarily apply to everyone after all.
I'm all for consistency that changes over time, not that every new record that is coming out is super different. Isn't it a bit exaggerated to say all records barley differentiate? Really?

If you have trouble to differentiate say, MORD034 and MORD041 doesn't that say more about you rather then the label itself?
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Lost to the Void »

Come on man, it's generic bilge most of the time. I don't see how any artist that respects their art would want the release on a label that just throws out releases like that.
Shitty generic artwork, no real direction beyond being inherently bland.
Not chance to develop the artists.
Literally just
Here's a release
Here's a release
Here's a release.
Everyone I know blocked the constant promo spam. Labyrinth is just the same
I'm no fan of mord, but it doesn't pump out the bilge so regular that you need an umbrella. They take a little more care, have a strong (albeit cliche) design ethic.
They might be your mates but surely you see just how generic and beige beatport all the crap they pump out is. I mean there may be a good release occasionally, but if you throw enough mud at the wall......
It's one of the labels that bowed down to beatports pressure when they flipped contract demands years back and demanded super regular releases. That began the beatport bilge pump of techno.
And it just never got out the of that bilge pump habit, literally becoming one of the labels that represents the bad way that beatport effected techno.
If they were my mates I would be having words with them.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Lost to the Void »

dubdub wrote:I don't know, IMO with the amount of music released today, every label ought to think extra hard about what they release instead of just putting out stuff because they can. Most of the stuff on labels like Mord, Affin, Gynoid, Planet Rhythm etc. is fine, even if most of it isn't my thing personally. Of course, DJs need tools but most of the output on these kind of labels all sounds the same and I just don't see why anyone would need twenty releases a year that you can barely differentiate. Mord is a good example, when they started out it felt fresh and bold but now it's just a new record every month with a distorted 909 kick and sequenced monosynth regis style riffs. Of course, no one is forced to buy anything but that kind of release policy has created an ecosystem where DJs download 200 promos at the airport, they play that for three weeks and then they switch to the next 200 promos, which sound exactly the same. Most modern techno that I hear DJs play now is totally anonymous and disposable and that really kind of depresses me. Of course, it's the DJs fault above all but the labels are driving that kind of ecosystem with their release schedules. If you release a record every three weeks, you obviously don't expect anyone to play your record for more than three weeks. I wasn't around back then but I guess the same thing happened during the height of the whole Prime distribution tribal thing where labels were pumping out records weekly and DJs were playing 40 records and hour that all had bongos and random african samples. There's a reason why that scene collapsed. I don't see modern techno collapsing right now but I kinda wish it did.

This.

Most of those labeled mentioned are factories of meh....
Had no idea Mord has ramped up to a ridiculous schedule.
Baz used to work at triple vision I think, so it makes sense, having access to a distributor like that.

Yeah we do need another prime collapse, that started a chain reaction that caused a lot of good stuff to happen.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Lost to the Void »

I just totted up the 2017 release for electrax labels.
Some of which seem to release then same type of music despite having different names.
89 releases in 2017!!!

89 :o
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Mattias »

Here's the deal;

Techno is about energy and to be played at raves, clubs, any place where people can and want to dance. However it can also work as listening music, yet tracks that were made mostly for listening usually doesn't work that well on a dance-floor.
Let's keep the two separated for a while.

So, different labels have different ideas about what they want to release. The labels we talk about here are often dance-floor oriented.

Deejays buys those tracks and playing a DJ set can resemble making a track in many ways. What I mean by that is simply that you use matching elements and use them together so you can keep on going throughout a night or a track. In both cases you look for elements that work well together, that sits nicely and gives context. This can also be used to break the "rules" as an effect. In DJ sets, if every track you play after each-other are too different, the set feels fragmented and doesn't make any sense considering Techno is a very monotonous and primal style yes? Occasionally some people have been known to get away with it, it's contextual. However if all tracks are too samey it doesn't make sense either and becomes boring. One reason why there exists tracks that resembles each other and have samey vibes are that they work better or worse with different tracks in a DJ set, for different nights. It's about key, tone, texture and drive usually. You use the pieces where they fit together the best. Obviously there's gonna be music that sounds similar, that's the whole point. It's not a wedding party where the DJ plays MTV hits from the brides youth.

One thing that causes confusion and creates distance between people in a discussion is the reference. Many times a reference needs to be established.
What is same and what is not?

Let's take Singularity as an example. SIN028, track "Frozen" is not miles apart from SIN027 track "Flinterdun". Right? They would work pretty good together in a deejay set.
They can be described as samey. There are more examples. Is that wrong? There are loads of samey to be found.

Further, let's take another example.
Check this track

youtu.be/wJfnv7rGOTM

And play this one next in a DJ set

youtu.be/aaoI6-6Cu8A

Makes no real sense if the deejay wants to keep up the drive and pace. Instead try this:

youtu.be/IYBvTanWhZE

That works better in context. It's a track with about the same elements and from there the deejay can go either into more of the same, which usually doesn't work and becomes stale, or move away a little in another direction that makes sense.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

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Lost to the Void wrote: Not chance to develop the artists.
Ok?
Lost to the Void wrote: Everyone I know blocked the constant promo spam.
From what label again? Gynoid doesnt send out many promos at all and when they do it's for a few selected people
Lost to the Void wrote:I'm no fan of mord, but it doesn't pump out the bilge so regular that you need an umbrella. They take a little more care, have a strong (albeit cliche) design ethic.
They might be your mates but surely you see just how generic and beige beatport all the crap they pump out is. I mean there may be a good release occasionally, but if you throw enough mud at the wall......
What about labels that does the taste-making and are not the followers? Check the top 100, a lot of that is what I would call beige Beatport crap over labels like Gynoid, Mord, AFFIN etc.
Lost to the Void wrote:It's one of the labels that bowed down to beatports pressure when they flipped contract demands years back and demanded super regular releases.
False. Assumption. There have never been any pressure like that. Don't believe everything you read.
Lost to the Void wrote:If they were my mates I would be having words with them.
I do regularly. My personal opinion have always been that a label shouldn't put too much music out during a year. However who am I to let it affect me if someone disagrees?
I know lots of people who are happy that several labels have busy release schedules.
Lost to the Void wrote:Come on man, it's generic bilge most of the time. I don't see how any artist that respects their art would want the release on a label that just throws out releases like that.
Each to their own and what reasons they have but Gynoid have released many well known and established artists who been glad to be around and appreciate what's been done. Same with those who have been doing remixes. I mean you even delivered a remix for this label? Does that mean that I should suddenly see you as someone who doesn't respect your art? Ok then ;) By the way, that remix can be considered as very samey and generic as well right? I think you did a pretty good job with it though, it got a good drive and nice atmosphere. It's a very all around type Of track that can fit many types of deejay sets. Much how I prefer to make my own tracks.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

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Music is very taste driven. Like art one person likes it another doesn't care for it etc etc. Take Rothko, white canvas with a line painted through it. To the naked eye looks simple and plain and allot of people dont appreciate it. Allot of people think it is too simple and easy but it actually took the guy many many hours to create and there are actually tons and tons of layers in those paintings but on the surface all we see is a canvas with a painted line through it. I think there is a difference between artistic quality and musical preference and they should be confused. Something can be good quality but not youre preference etc. Mord is a great label, there is a reason why they are popular. Im not sure why im posting this but yes there is plenty of music that I dont care for but its still good music, if that makes any sense. I have a friend that hates deep hosue and he cant not differentiate the difference between quality and preference so no matter what track you show him in the deep house genre its shit to him... There are similarities all over electronic music and 99.999999999999% of music is similar and not really fresh and new and yet the music is here to stay with short shelf lives, it is what it is, but i still love it, and I dont think it s ever going to change.

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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Lost to the Void »

Mattias wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote: Not chance to develop the artists.
Ok?
Lost to the Void wrote: Everyone I know blocked the constant promo spam.
From what label again? Gynoid doesnt send out many promos at all and when they do it's for a few selected people
Lost to the Void wrote:I'm no fan of mord, but it doesn't pump out the bilge so regular that you need an umbrella. They take a little more care, have a strong (albeit cliche) design ethic.
They might be your mates but surely you see just how generic and beige beatport all the crap they pump out is. I mean there may be a good release occasionally, but if you throw enough mud at the wall......
What about labels that does the taste-making and are not the followers? Check the top 100, a lot of that is what I would call beige Beatport crap over labels like Gynoid, Mord, AFFIN etc.
Lost to the Void wrote:It's one of the labels that bowed down to beatports pressure when they flipped contract demands years back and demanded super regular releases.
False. Assumption. There have never been any pressure like that. Don't believe everything you read.
Lost to the Void wrote:If they were my mates I would be having words with them.
I do regularly. My personal opinion have always been that a label shouldn't put too much music out during a year. However who am I to let it affect me if someone disagrees?
I know lots of people who are happy that several labels have busy release schedules.
Lost to the Void wrote:Come on man, it's generic bilge most of the time. I don't see how any artist that respects their art would want the release on a label that just throws out releases like that.
Each to their own and what reasons they have but Gynoid have released many well known and established artists who been glad to be around and appreciate what's been done. Same with those who have been doing remixes. I mean you even delivered a remix for this label? Does that mean that I should suddenly see you as someone who doesn't respect your art? Ok then ;) By the way, that remix can be considered as very samey and generic as well right? I think you did a pretty good job with it though, it got a good drive and nice atmosphere. It's a very all around type Of track that can fit many types of deejay sets. Much how I prefer to make my own tracks.
Jesus that post was depressing as fuck.
Essentially you said "just fit in, go along to get along, no alarms and no surprises, don't step out of line".
Utterly depressing to hear an artist talk like that dude. Shocking even.

I delivered a remix for a guy I knew who asked for a release, I didn't even know what label it was on until it came out, I rarely ask when doing remixes, I just deal with the person asking and if I like them I do it, it's just a remix. It's not the sort of music I generally produce, but I thought it was an ok remix, nothing special, relatively generic I guess, but I basically had a go at doing "normal" techno... I have released some shit in my time, and still do, but I do try to make it different each time.. I in no way consider myself a perfect artist, I merely try.
Now if I were to knock out that kind of bilge regularly well.... Again, bit of a straw man picking out one tiny remix to try to obfuscate the point.


Your whole post seems like justification for the bilge they churn out man.
Grasping at straws.
Robin Dr Freitas sounds very little like Force on my label, I worked very hard to pick artists who don't sound like each other, and your argument falls apart if you try to compare them.
Derlich sounds nothing like Blind Summit, who sounds nothing like casual violence who sounds nothing like Villain.... My remit was always to actively go and find people doing very much their own thing as much as possible within techno.
Wether or not the music is good or not, well.... I leave that down to taste, but at least it isn't generic by my measure, nor is it churned out like fries at mcdonalds. One of the reasons the label has been on a long hiatus is to rethink strategy. The last release was doom metal, releases start again soon with a very different mission, in an attempt to keep things fresh and.... Different.

You can't say that about Gynoid man, it's just a churn of blah, thrown in a set by generic blah DJs and then discarded like junk food for the next new bit of bilge.
The yawning tide of slurry that is mainstream techno.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Mattias »

Lost to the Void wrote:[
Jesus that post was depressing as fuck.
Essentially you said "just fit in, go along to get along, no alarms and no surprises, don't step out of line".
Utterly depressing to hear an artist talk like that dude. Shocking even.
Are you perhaps a bit daft, perhaps stupid or are you just trolling me? How the flying fuck did you translate all of that and got it into "just fit in, go along to get along, no alarms and no surprises, don't step out of line"? Don't you dare putting word in my mouth. I clearly express my opinion when I have one, it should be obvious, if nothing is said then I simply discuss as an observer. There is even a "in my opinion" up there. Check that before you make more assumptions. I demand an apology seriously.

I don't think you get my point or perhaps you refuse to. Sigh...My point regarding your Singularity label is not that all artists on it sounds the same. It's that deejays tends to choose tracks that resemble each other to a certain degree so they can fit them with each-other and use it as bridges to play other tracks during a track. Clear enough?

You misunderstand me with your remix also. I don't shame you over it you know? God dammit.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Lost to the Void »

Shit DJs tend to pick similar sounding tracks, I agree.
It makes mixing easier when everything sounds the same.

But 89 releases this year
89!!!

I defy anyone to go the the electrax music page, listen to the latest release on all 9 labels and not put them all in the bracket of generic "dark techno".
There is one release that stands out, the house release by the Japanese guys, and maybe the acid label, but even then it's just generic dark techno with a reverebed 303 pasted in instead of a stab.
Every release pretty much the same BPM and the same general generic mood.
You need 9 labels for that bilge?
Essentially it's 1 label kicking out a huge slurry pretending to be 9 labels, when basically they all fit a very narrow sub genre of techno.
It's almost embarrassing man, I'm not being mean, anyone go there and tell me the latest releases are different enough to justify so many labels.

89 releases this year!!!!

Indefensible.

I think you deserve better for your music man, you have the chops to do something more special than fit in with that garbage.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Mattias »

Lost to the Void wrote: It's almost embarrassing man, I'm not being mean, anyone go there and tell me the latest releases are different enough to justify so many labels.

89 releases this year!!!!

Indefensible.

I think you deserve better for your music man, you have the chops to do something more special than fit in with that garbage.
Well I'll take that as a compliment considering your hate for those labels. However, I'll have to return it right back at you.
I mean your name appears on labels that are just as "embarrassing". Are we done here?
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

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Mattias wrote:Here's the deal;
Deejays buys those tracks and playing a DJ set can resemble making a track in many ways. What I mean by that is simply that you use matching elements and use them together so you can keep on going throughout a night or a track. In both cases you look for elements that work well together, that sits nicely and gives context. This can also be used to break the "rules" as an effect. In DJ sets, if every track you play after each-other are too different, the set feels fragmented and doesn't make any sense considering Techno is a very monotonous and primal style yes? Occasionally some people have been known to get away with it, it's contextual. However if all tracks are too samey it doesn't make sense either and becomes boring. One reason why there exists tracks that resembles each other and have samey vibes are that they work better or worse with different tracks in a DJ set, for different nights. It's about key, tone, texture and drive usually. You use the pieces where they fit together the best. Obviously there's gonna be music that sounds similar, that's the whole point. It's not a wedding party where the DJ plays MTV hits from the brides youth.
I agree up to a certain point. But I also fundamentally disagree in a certain sense - this kind of rhetoric is always used to justify these super flat DJ sets where are only tools with the same character and colour are played. I know what modern techno sounds like on the dancefloor, I've spent years being at Berghain 2-3 times a month for 8-16 hours. I'm not judging your DJing here since I haven't yeard you but I've heard almost everyone that has a big name in this scene and from my personal experience (and opinion, obviously) only a handful of guys can actually pull off this super tooly style (DVS1, Rodhad, Ben Klock come to mind). For everyone else it just ends up sounding flat and uninspired. I just wish there were more DJs like Steffi (basically my favorite techno DJs for past few years) that play stuff that's fierce, with colour, with emotion, with an actual energy curve that goes up and down. Meanwhile, I can go to Berghain on a random sunday and likely literally hear hours of same-y sounding dark stomping techno without any change in colour or emotion. Many DJs play entire sets without a single track that has a real melody or emotional grounding. Only functional, emotionally void boom-boom music for people on too much speed and G. Obviously, I'm being somewhat hyperbolic here but I (and some of my friends aswell) feel very passionate about this. It got to the point where even though I still like dancing I rarely go to techno nights (in Berlin, mind you) because it's just the same dark monotone modern techno shit everywhere. Obviously, my taste has changed over the years (used to be huge into Prologue etc. ...) but I dofeel like it's gotten worse with techno getting more popular. There's now so many people that think techno has to be dark and banging and industrial and they don't know or want anything else. Even though there's so much great detroit-y techno and house coming out right now and most of these techno jocks just don't play any of it. Obviously, i'm being biased against dark modern techno here since I don't mind if someone plays a few hours of same-y sounding detroit/oldschool techno but there isn't nearly as much coming out in that kind of style and those genres have a lot of colour and emotion in every track where as a lot of modern techno is just kind of overly functional, greyscale and empty. Which can be useful but not if you play a whole set of it. And that's what I'm hearing all the time. And labels that put out twenty releases like that every year aren't helping. Like I said, it creates this ecosystem of disposability and anonymity. I spent more time looking at new releases than most people and I can hear a lot of DJs and not recognize anything because it's all promos or stuff so generic and tool-y that you won't remember it.

Yeah, i'm just ranting at this point, lol. I do think about this kinda stuff a lot since, despite my ongoing passion for techno I'm feeling increasingly foreign in this music that I invested so much in. And it's not just me, a lot of people that I talk to that are into the more detroit/oldschool/deep/melodic stuff share similiar sentiments. (Hell, I had a conversion like that with a Mord artist :) )

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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Lost to the Void »

Mattias wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote: It's almost embarrassing man, I'm not being mean, anyone go there and tell me the latest releases are different enough to justify so many labels.

89 releases this year!!!!

Indefensible.

I think you deserve better for your music man, you have the chops to do something more special than fit in with that garbage.
Well I'll take that as a compliment considering your hate for those labels. However, I'll have to return it right back at you.
I mean your name appears on labels that are just as "embarrassing". Are we done here?

It is a compliment.

I don't hate the labels, its hard to be that emotional about something so utterly anodyne, I just think they are bilge factories contributing to the watering down of techno.
15 releases a month!!!!
15!!!!
My god man.
Even Bumload isn't that bad.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by subsektuser9000 »

I'm honestly just flabbergasted to see this thread reach over 30+ posts and not a single one pertains to the topic of the thread.

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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

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The reason why it hasn't is because it's already been discussed in the thread that was linked in here.
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Mattias »

dubdub wrote:
I agree up to a certain point. But I also fundamentally disagree in a certain sense - this kind of rhetoric is always used to justify these super flat DJ sets where are only tools with the same character and colour are played. I know what modern techno sounds like on the dancefloor, I've spent years being at Berghain 2-3 times a month for 8-16 hours. I'm not judging your DJing here since I haven't yeard you but I've heard almost everyone that has a big name in this scene and from my personal experience (and opinion, obviously) only a handful of guys can actually pull off this super tooly style (DVS1, Rodhad, Ben Klock come to mind). For everyone else it just ends up sounding flat and uninspired.
We're in agreement on this. I'm just speaking generally. I'm not here to defend boring boing boing deejay sets that is empty from music that have melody, sequences and progression (which I personally love to play). What I do is trying to offer explanations to why it happens and why it exists. I have no problem to play some tool styled empty techno in my sets however, but they're few. Instead I make my own tools and layer with other tracks while I play.
Lost to the Void wrote:
It is a compliment.

I don't hate the labels, its hard to be that emotional about something so utterly anodyne, I just think they are bilge factories contributing to the watering down of techno.
15 releases a month!!!!
15!!!!
My god man.
Even Bumload isn't that bad.
I've been corrected, apparently it's the distribution that makes sure the schedule looks so cramped on Gynoid over at Beatport. In reality the main release platform for it is at Bandcamp where the releases are coming earlier and further apart time wise then Beatport. Still a considerably busy schedule however, it just looks worse then it is checking Beatport etc. As for the other labels, sure they are busy as hell. I never even check them
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by sinesnsnares »

Man I love how things can get derailed here. Interesting discussion though... I personally don't really care about how many releases a label puts out in a year, if they remain consistent in output. Gynoid and all the sublabels have a pretty consistent sound altogether, so if i'm looking for new tracks in that style, and i hear something I like, I'll buy it. I don't need to buy every release a label puts out, and, personally, i don't mind doing a bit of sifting. I only buy vinyl anyways these days, so there's already a huge filter in place for me.

I guess i just don't see why we expect every artist's output to be a collection of masterpieces. I think it's a good goal to strive for, but i recognize that a lot of people in techno are balancing two separate, but related arts (Production and Djing). Producing songs specifically to be played out has spelled out so many of the features of this genre that it's a bit harsh to judge people for that now, isn't it? Basically, I think if Mattias decides to take four tools that he's made specifically to play in his sets and releases an ep on whatever label, i don't have a problem with that. I'd probably buy them. I don't think Markus Suckut, with his "For Start # For set #" EP on Figure was trying break new ground on techno home listening.

By producing "tools" are us producers enabling lazy, easy djing or not? I personally don't mind sets with a decent amount of tools, i mean, it depends how you use them right? I've heard sets of mostly tools that kept me entertained, and a more varied set recently that was just.... scattered and not done very well. The Dj (A Reasonably big name) even played one of my favourite all time tracks, and i really, really didn't like it, because it was layered between tracks that wouldn't really be described as "tools" . It straight up killed the vibe. Whereas last year, another dj played the same track, just fading it in between tools, and it was fucking perfect. One dj tried to do something "different" and it wasn't good, whereas the other one did something "generic", but it banged. Sorry but when i go out , i want to have a good night, where the dj can keep me dancing and find that perfect balance between artistic and functional.

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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Mattias »

sinesnsnares wrote:Sorry but when i go out , i want to have a good night, where the dj can keep me dancing and find that perfect balance between artistic and functional.
This is a very important factor in my opinion. If someone decides they want to go out and rage dance they look up a place where they can do that, alternatively if they wanna hang around more and or listen and appreciate music in another way they look for a place that presents that for a night. That blend between artistic and functional is very hard to pull off but often, even if a set wasn't100% spot on what you wished to do, it stays with people regardless if my experience. I always try to do just that playing those 133BPM sets blending medium to harder tracks back and forth swapping new with old, switching melodious tracks with monotonous tonal synth-less bangers, swapping again with repetitive terror synths sequences etc etc. It's way more open to fail and inconstancy but feels better inside. In the end for me it's only about creating energy. I'm not one of those deejays who wanna play uplifting music to emit happy feelings to the crowd, I wanna break them in the best possible way. Haha
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Lost to the Void
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Re: Looking For Advice On This Kind of Techno...

Post by Lost to the Void »

It's called playing safe, and safety is the enemy of creativity.

A lot of these type of DJs are basically so beholden to the crowd they are just too scared to try anything different. Just mixing and endless grey stream of the same shit for hours in an orgy of the moronic.
But if you do a good job in doing the unexpected, it's the best thing ever, and the crowd will love you for it.
There are so many things these type of DJs say you can't play because it "won't work". I've done all of those things and it nearly always works.

Courage, it's about having some fucking balls, taking some risks, it's about being an artist and exploring. Otherwise what are you? A fucking entertainer? A McDonald's beat dispensing unit giving dull predictable humdrum music for the bourgeoise to get fucked up to?

I saw Kareem 2 weeks ago, you never knew where the set was going to go but he never lost the floor. He was throwing all sorts of stuff in to the mix and it was inspiring.
There was this one tune where the kick was in 3\4. It was really bizarre rhythmic noise, spun people out for a bit but then everyone just got it and the room ripped up. Never heard anything like it, made me want to go home and make music right away.

I had a chat with him afterwards and his attitude and philosophy was inspiring too.
"If you aren't scared of losing the dancefloor at any moment then you aren't doing your job properly". A real artist he is not interested in anything but exploring the music and pushing against it.

First DJ set I have heard in probably 6 months that has been inspiring and not just the same old plodding shit thrown out the speakers.

I just want more out of art than just doing what is expected. That is not art.
Mastering Engineer @ Black Monolith Studio
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Techno is dead. Long live Techno.


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