Loop syndrome

Electronic Music Production // Dark Arts
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Alume
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Loop syndrome

Post by Alume »

Hey guys,

I'm using all arms to beat my loop syndrome(in ableton). I find it quite hard because I like to pursue a sort of endless loop concept with my music, the notion that it could go on forever. However I find that the tensions should build/release and obviously the track should be a full piece of music rather than an extended loop. Next to the info available on Subsekt I wonder if you guys have any good tutorials that you've found useful regarding step to undertake when coming from a loop and going into arrangement.

I'd like to move from drawing in automations towards a jamming style of arrangement, I find this would be more true to the music as it its actually played. However I do like to keep control over parameters, so it would be nice if i could go back if need be. In the projects I want to finish I'm not using any scenes at the moment. I never got into that but I will consider in in my future projects.

8-)

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Southpaw »

It's one of my pet hates and I think linear sequencing and arranging almost leads you into it because you're ( usually ) in 4/4 and always thinking in 8/16/32 etc etc.

I think you hit upon a key point when you mentioned jamming the arrangement. I'm currently trying to modify/add things to my workflow for this very reason so that I have hands on control and zero arranging ( just recording ) Then, no white noise builds, silly drops and other such nonesense and just work the elements of the track in and out as the vibe of the moment dictates whilst recording.

If all your source sounds are right, mixed and sounding good, it's should be inevitable to end up with that sort of flow. The hard part I am finding compared to hardware, is actually the lack of hands on and I haven't quite got my head around that yet.
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Lost to the Void
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Lost to the Void »

Jam it out is the way. It's what turned me on to ableton for production.
I'm never ever arrange.
Everything is jammed from clips with stuff set out on controllers.
Then when I run out of fingers I do more runs through controlling different parameters.
Also try experimenting with introducing new parts and taking the tune somewhere else entirely, instead of just building to your loop over the track, just get to a point and introduce whole new parts, maybe even a key change or something.
Then coming and do fine edits and changes in arrangement for embellishment if need be.
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Southpaw »

Lost to the Void wrote:Jam it out is the way. It's what turned me on to ableton for production.
I'm never ever arrange.
Everything is jammed from clips with stuff set out on controllers.
Then when I run out of fingers I do more runs through controlling different parameters.
Also try experimenting with introducing new parts and taking the tune somewhere else entirely, instead of just building to your loop over the track, just get to a point and introduce whole new parts, maybe even a key change or something.
Then coming and do fine edits and changes in arrangement for embellishment if need be.
I like the idea of your workflow. I made a post a few weeks ago regarding controllers better suited for this task ( havent got one yet as I've had a big rent increase ) but even thinking about it makes my head hurt. I mean, how do you end up determining what you are going to assing to a controller/s? Do you have a set 'template' or do you decide before jamming and then map specific things soley for that track in question?

The problem I have is that I am only thinking one dimensionally, almost like I want to replicate the only way I know how. Eg: riding mixer fader, volume knobs on synths, channel mutes on drum machines etc. It's like I get option paralysis just thinking about what could be assigned which kinda defeats the object I guess.

It would be interesting to hear from others who favour this way of making music as to what defines a suitable 'template'/start point in terms of hands on control. :)
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Lost to the Void »

Well I don't use any mutes, I just create scenes with clips and then bring clips in and out, better than mutes really.
Some tracks I will fade in or out, so they get assigned.
Others will be brought in via filters, and therefore assigned to controllers.
I generally do that stuff "mix stuff" first.
Then filters and any other FX will get done next.
I assign all this stuff whilst just looping the "main loop" in session view.
So by the time I start building scenes I have already played around and jammed out an idea of where the track will go and have stuff assigned to controllers ready to go.

Working that way really has taken a lot more of the worry about arrangement out of my life.

It may be I will re-record a few times before I end up with an arrangement that works for me, but it's a good way of working.

I don't use any templates at all as it is all about what sounds are being used.

Literally anything gets assigned to a controller. Wet dry on an effect, filter cutoff, modulation amount, stereo width, delay feedback, reverb decay, grain size, ring mod Freq.
It gives you more to work with on more simple tracks without feeling the need to add more sounds for progression.

I think basically just look at what you have, play around with some parameters, be brave and try stuff you haven't before, find things that are pleasing and then assign them.
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Alume »

Interesting, that step, of assigning parameters to your controller whilst creating the base for the loop and before creating scenes hasn't accured to me.

Its quite obvious when you think about it really, first get a feel so that you understand where the music could go.

I like working template less as well, apart from some general routing stuff with my multiclock etc.

Anyhow, what do you think. I've got these loops that I feel comfortable with, however I haven't made them with any idea of the next step really. I also haven't created scenes and such.

I figured I've been to cramped and narrow minded about them, first I was like these are awesome and they need to become an EP together, all i have to do now is arrange them. Now I'm more like ok, they might have something going, though arranging isnt than easy as i thought, so should i ditch them or make it work other wise.

And after your post i realize that they aren't in the final phase of the loop at all and that ditching them isnt the way. Maybe some elements need to go, maybe some need to be replaced. Who knows.


So I'm going to look at the one that i feel comfortable with to jump in first. Look up some tutorials on scenes and such.

Btw how do you handle midi vs audio. Do you bounce midi of to create limitations, or do you leave everything open including fx chains etc.

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by terryfalafel »

This approach, but using a hardware sequencer, is what's finally got me out of 8 bar loop mode and finishing stuff.

It goes : get enough ideas down for a track. Make sure enough synth & drum parameters to tweak are within reach and then just hit record and bring tracks in and out while tweaking for 6-7 minutes.

One thing I'm doing differently is recording as audio, not midi. So once the audio tracks are laid, some editing and of the audio can happen, but things like modulation changes or filter sweeps are committed and need a re-record if I'm not happy with them. I chose this approach purposefully to practice and become good at getting what I want first take. More chance of being able to pull it off live that that way, if I ever get round to developing a live set...

The arrangements are definitely more interesting than the very contrived sounding arrangements​ I was making before when doing it by hand in Cubase. And I've had a few happy accidents which have let to good results as well...

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by dubdub »

Lost to the Void wrote: Literally anything gets assigned to a controller. Wet dry on an effect, filter cutoff, modulation amount, stereo width, delay feedback, reverb decay, grain size, ring mod Freq.
It gives you more to work with on more simple tracks without feeling the need to add more sounds for progression.
How many parameters do you usually assign? If you have like random 30 random parameters, everything from wet/dry to ring mod, it would seem like a pain in the ass to remember the mappings to me. I have a big template with mappings of the important stuff so I can tweak all the important parameters at once since I know where everything is without even looking. If I'd assign stuff every time, i'd just get confused with all the mappings, especially if you have small stuff like grain size or ring mod.

And how many "tweaking takes" do you usually do? If you have like 30 parameters and you tweak only 2-3 at once and your track is like 7 minute, that's a lot of time spent tweaking. Do you have some kind of system for what to tweak in one take so like one for delay, one for reverb etc.?

Btw, what controllers do you use?

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Lost to the Void »

dubdub wrote:
Lost to the Void wrote: Literally anything gets assigned to a controller. Wet dry on an effect, filter cutoff, modulation amount, stereo width, delay feedback, reverb decay, grain size, ring mod Freq.
It gives you more to work with on more simple tracks without feeling the need to add more sounds for progression.
How many parameters do you usually assign? If you have like random 30 random parameters, everything from wet/dry to ring mod, it would seem like a pain in the ass to remember the mappings to me. I have a big template with mappings of the important stuff so I can tweak all the important parameters at once since I know where everything is without even looking. If I'd assign stuff every time, i'd just get confused with all the mappings, especially if you have small stuff like grain size or ring mod.

And how many "tweaking takes" do you usually do? If you have like 30 parameters and you tweak only 2-3 at once and your track is like 7 minute, that's a lot of time spent tweaking. Do you have some kind of system for what to tweak in one take so like one for delay, one for reverb etc.?

Btw, what controllers do you use?
Well generally I record automation in a number of passes, so forgetting mapping really isn't an issue.
Always track faders and feature automation in the first pass.
I assign a lot of stuff to LFOs too. Max4Live LFOs are a god send, you can automate absolutely anything.
I think it's always better to control yourself any parameter than draw it in. As sometimes during the process of recording you might hit a sweet spot and just let it ride out, whereas drawing it in you will miss that from happening.
Amount of parameters varies. I try not to overcomplicate.
Probably 3 passes worth of automation is the most.
Then I might go in and clean up sections in arrangement.
Controllers? I have an old series 2 Oxygen 49. 8 faders, 8 rotaries and 8 pads (which I will use to trigger splashes and fx to punctuate bar changes). And a Behringer BCR2000 which is knobtastic.
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Lost to the Void »

Next time I'm in the studio, I'll take a screen grab of a session view to give you an idea of the loose structuring I use.
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by P0607r0n »

terryfalafel wrote:This approach, but using a hardware sequencer, is what's finally got me out of 8 bar loop mode and finishing stuff.

It goes : get enough ideas down for a track. Make sure enough synth & drum parameters to tweak are within reach and then just hit record and bring tracks in and out while tweaking for 6-7 minutes.

One thing I'm doing differently is recording as audio, not midi. So once the audio tracks are laid, some editing and of the audio can happen, but things like modulation changes or filter sweeps are committed and need a re-record if I'm not happy with them. I chose this approach purposefully to practice and become good at getting what I want first take. More chance of being able to pull it off live that that way, if I ever get round to developing a live set...

The arrangements are definitely more interesting than the very contrived sounding arrangements​ I was making before when doing it by hand in Cubase. And I've had a few happy accidents which have let to good results as well...
That's very close to my workflow as well, though I often create patches, patterns thinking more in terms of liive set, so i end up with plenty of sounds to play around with. Then I usually record around 20 min live take, where I bring stuff in and out, and tweak some parameters, after which I cut it to the part I really like, ending up with 6 - 8 min piece I could call a track. Other times I will fuck about with some synth, and fx and end up with some kind of a hook I'll build my improvisation around it.
I think it keeps me out of the looposis

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Lost to the Void »

Right here is a quick example of a session view from a remix I am working on.

After jamming with the main loop as I created it (top most row of clips)
I then set out a rough structure of clips.
Then I just hit record and I can trigger scenes or clips as and when it feels right, rather than conforming to the visual trappings of typical arrangement views, and of course recording automation as I jam.

That way you have a structure there, but you can deviate from it if a particular section is just grooving out nicely, or just drop out elements etc.
You will see some clips have no stop buttons in the rows under them, these are removed on polyrhythmic parts so that if I click another scene, the parts aren`t restarted or stopped, and just carry on looping to their own bar length.
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by buonacc »

again...

Image

jam out, record it all live to separate audio tracks/busses or to Arrangement. jam over that and do the same as before, either with the whole thing playing back or by looping parts of it and layering new parts on top. cut it up, edit, do whatever. anything you can think of.

[i wouldn't be surprised if over half of my posts are just posting pics of the APC40mkII. this thing is perfect for bringing a "hardware" feel/workflow to Ableton.]

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by dubdub »

Lost to the Void wrote:Right here is a quick example of a session view from a remix I am working on.

After jamming with the main loop as I created it (top most row of clips)
I then set out a rough structure of clips.
Then I just hit record and I can trigger scenes or clips as and when it feels right, rather than conforming to the visual trappings of typical arrangement views, and of course recording automation as I jam
Are all the clips in a vertical row the same or are they variations? I never have more than one or two horizontal rows so I've never bothered with triggering scenes. So I take the scenes are basically the different "parts" of the arrangement ie. intro, outro, break, peak etc.? I guess the advantage of that way of working is that you can change the entire arrangement with one button, where as if you do mute/unmute like me, you only have to hands which makes extreme arrangement changes a bit difficult. When I get a Push i'll try the whole triggering clips thing, right now I just map mute/unmute tracks to the buttons on my BCR.

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Lost to the Void »

The problem with mute\unmute is that you can get sudden kills losing fx tails, or the tails of a reverb carried over from a previous bar will appear before the sound apparently triggers them.
In some cases, vertically, there are changes and progressions in note terms within parts.

The good thing about working this way is you get nice bar markations in the session view making editing much easier than dealing with looooooooong midi files and audio tracks.
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Alume »

Will give it a try, seems like scenes is one of the ways to go atm.

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Lost to the Void »

It`s worth doing.
I got in a rut with working in arrangement type views, ala logic, cubase etc.
Working this way makes arranging more fun, it turns it in to a live performance.
And it goes back to working in a studio with musicians, where you are capturing a performance rather than dictating one.
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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by Alume »

Yeah and it lets you approach the project differbtly

I was always like, op cool loop, lets trun this into an awesome track.

Eager to try some stuff.

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by dubdub »

Lost to the Void wrote:The problem with mute\unmute is that you can get sudden kills losing fx tails, or the tails of a reverb carried over from a previous bar will appear before the sound apparently triggers them.
In some cases, vertically, there are changes and progressions in note terms within parts.

The good thing about working this way is you get nice bar markations in the session view making editing much easier than dealing with looooooooong midi files and audio tracks.
What I do is I record a long, continuous take of all the tracks. Then I do a take where I record mute/unmute automation. Then I substractively edit according to the automation. It's pretty quick, the editing takes a minute or two at most.

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Re: Loop syndrome

Post by gtsm »

For me it's a bit of both. What I've noticed is that it's easier to make a transition into performing the track when I lay out the basic rhythmic structure in arrangement and then perform other elements like synths on top of that.


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