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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:14 pm 
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Mattias wrote:
Nothing is "wrong" with the a7x tweeters, it's the compromise of design in the cabinet in certain speakers. When they're allowed to handle too much of the frequency spectrum downwards the middle. They, by design, cannot deliver good output below 2khz I think.



This is the problem, the crossover point on the a7 and a8 is at 2.5k.

They heavily heavily marketed those ribbon tweaters, because they were in use on their 3 way systems, andnthey were invested in them (and for todays digital world it minda makes sense, super bright super detailed high end going up to 22k), and they brought the buzz down to the 2 way, but ribbons just arent appropriate to a 2 way system.
Once again marketing spiel won the day though, and good ild expectation bias means if people are told its great they will experience great.
I never liked adams when I first heard them, mid voicing has always been important to me, only after investigating did I find the problem, and I do notice problems with mixes in the mastering studio made on adams stuff. Either a dip at the crossover where they are compensating for the fatigue caused in that area, or a lack of coherence there (they also use pretty cheap chinese gainclone op amps in the actives, many people have had to send them in to be repaired/replaced, which is another matter).

Its easy to get caught up in this stuff, speaker design, especially 2 way design, is always a compromise, we are talking minor distortions that unexperienced ears might not notice for years, but if you don't even need to experience them ever because there are alternatives then.....

And of course people used to swear by the old grot box NS10s. We have moved on of course...

My first techno releases were produced on Soundcraft Absolute 2's.... Bleargh.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:51 pm 
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what monitors are you producing your work on Voidloss?


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:34 pm 
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These days I mostly use headphones weirdly enough, I prefer to be inside the sound when I make music.
But in the production room I have JBL LSR4326's hi-q networked to a LSR4312.
Great monitors, the protection system is stupidly sensitive to power and the first run had weird resin leakage on the rubberised enclosure that emerged after a couple of years. Needed chemical treatment to clean em.
But they are nice monitors.

I'm getting some Polk LSiM 703s at the end of the year. I want to get away from actives.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:43 pm 
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Why do you want to get away from actives?

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:58 pm 
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Actives have shitty amps, it`s always the weakest part of the speaker but it`s convenient and has certain advantages.
The shit they stuff inside active speakers can`t compete with a good dedicated amp or two (if you bi-wire).

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:12 pm 
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You sound like a audiophile Voidloss. But I do understand the quest and need for a nice set of speakers and amps. If you want it just do it!
Do you expect a big difference in the quality of your mastering work? Isn't that kind of stuff like gaining the last 1%?

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:27 pm 
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WOLF! wrote:
You sound like a audiophile Voidloss. But I do understand the quest and need for a nice set of speakers and amps. If you want it just do it!
Do you expect a big difference in the quality of your mastering work? Isn't that kind of stuff like gaining the last 1%?


My mastering monitors are not my production monitors. I have 2 studios. I am exceedingly happy with my mastering monitors and amp.
I`m definitely not an audiophile, I deal with objectivity as much as possible, and rally against audiophool stupidity such as Jazz cables and special power cables etc.
I just notice more and more the problem with active nearfields as I move between studios and work in others.
Actives are super convenient, but unless you are spending a huge amount on them, you are not getting the best amplification, far from it, most actives have shitty little amps squeezed in to those boxes.
I`ve been doing this long enough where I hear that now, it`s the curse of working in mastering, that 1% (more like 4-5%) is very noticeable to me now.

It`s not like I change speakers daily, my production room speakers I have had for probably 10 years, finally switching them out (I have auditioned all sorts over the years, including adams), this year is a big decision, and I think I have found the right speakers (still not sure on amp though), I get a demo set in December so time will tell.
It took me a year to decide on my mastering monitors, lots of Demo`s, lots of talk with manufacturers, I decided to take the same care when getting new production monitors too.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:14 pm 
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Yep there is always compromise. While the A7x (since it's being discussed in this example but you can add every other speakers here instead of it) might be good for some it's not suitable for others. It depends on the user and what it's usage will be. But even if the A7x is a pretty well loved speaker it's still a major compromise. It's just impossible to sell a speaker to that price while having the necessary quality of truly great speaker.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:04 pm 
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What would be the advantage of say Focal CMS 65's over A7X's besides the subjective opinion? I ask specifically about CMS line because I feel like its a good comparison for that range of monitors. I mean I know it's all about your ear and you can produce great stuff even on shit monitors and what not, but this thread is making it seem like A7X's are on the weaker side for that price range.


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:27 pm 
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Senko wrote:
What would be the advantage of say Focal CMS 65's over A7X's besides the subjective opinion? I ask specifically about CMS line because I feel like its a good comparison for that range of monitors. I mean I know it's all about your ear and you can produce great stuff even on shit monitors and what not, but this thread is making it seem like A7X's are on the weaker side for that price range.


Better high mid cohesion, and wide ports don`t honk as much at the tuned port frequency, so slightly more accurate bass.
Adams are fine, but at that price there is stiff competition and I think they sit around the middle in terms of overall quality/value for money.

You really need to test some monitors out, mid range voicing is something very particular to our ears.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:55 pm 
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Since this topic has come up again, what's the best option for a budget around 800 euros (pair)? I know monitors are a good thing to invest in but that's the most I can reasonable save up in the forseeable future.


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:04 pm 
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Focal Alpha 65 or 80 are pretty good. I'd go with the 65, you lose a little low end but the mids are tighter.

Presonus Sceptre S6 perhaps. The S8s are wonderful, having the imaging so focused makes mixing easier.

With a nearfield I think having the best possible mid range frequency perfomance, imaging and transient response is key. Its worth losing a little bass and having a clearer mid range, our ears are centred on the mids because of the human voice, getting your mid range right is the key to a great mix I think.
You can always check in headphones what is going on low low, and just be a little cautious with the lows, better to be under than over represented, much easier to deal with in mastering. Too many people plum for the biggest possible driver for price and in nearfield 2-ways I think 8 inch drivers sacrifice too much upper mid performance just to get another 5-ish hz lower than 6's.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm 
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Cheers. I'd actually prefer having less bass than maybe needed - I have a pair of Rokit 5s right now and they're way more bass heavy than i'd like. The acoustics in this house are incredibly transportative (is that a word? :p), I always produce at a quite low volume which I honestly don't mind, but if my monitors are bass-heavy I can't turn them up to check something without rattling the whole house. My neighbours aren't complaining but i've already got boom-boom running all day, no need to push things. I've never understood the appeal of having your living room sound like a club anyways, if I listen to techno/club records at home I almost always EQ out a bit of bass.

The Focal 65's are only around 300 euros, nice. The Presonous S6 would be almost double that. They look fucking sleek though :)


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:38 pm 
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Quote:
You really need to test some monitors out, mid range voicing is something very particular to our ears.


Yeah, i'll just ride it out with them for now. They haven't been too problematic, but good to be fully aware of what you're working with. The Focal range is really eye-catching though upgrade wise, especially those Solo 6 Be's :)


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:20 am 
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some really great reading here!
I would agree with Voidloss on the midrange. I find that alot of nearfields have a problem representing the mids almot like it is forgotten between innaccurate lows and piercing highs.
I'm really curious about these Sceptres. Heard alot about the imaging being very precise. Need to get infront of them!


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:18 am 
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All speaker designs are 'compromised' by nature, no such thing as a perfect speaker design... thats why there are so many different design approaches.

From personal experience A7's are a great monitor very truthful and translate very well for the price! I used them for 4 years. Yes they are very 'mid forward', but thats a good thing for mix intelligibility.

Its not expectation bias, its just daily use, mids are actually where the A7 excels. Voidloss doesn't like Adams which is totally cool, I don't like Genelecs. So best really to go hear a few you think you might like. Monitors are a very personal thing. Above a certain price point £2-3k they are all generally "good", but at €1k their are more differences and 'compromises' imo.

The Focal CMS 65 are very nice sounding a mate just got a pair. I've also heard very good things about the APS Klasik you might want to see if you can demo them somewhere, new Polish manufacturer, just under €1,000.

If cost were not an issue these would be my next monitors. But at €5k they are just out of my league...
http://www.amphion.fi/en/create/products/two15/

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:24 pm 
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msl wrote:
All speaker designs are 'compromised' by nature, no such thing as a perfect speaker design... thats why there are so many different design approaches.

From personal experience A7's are a great monitor very truthful and translate very well for the price! I used them for 4 years. Yes they are very 'mid forward', but thats a good thing for mix intelligibility.

Its not expectation bias, its just daily use, mids are actually where the A7 excels. Voidloss doesn't like Adams which is totally cool, I don't like Genelecs. So best really to go hear a few you think you might like. Monitors are a very personal thing. Above a certain price point £2-3k they are all generally "good", but at €1k their are more differences and 'compromises' imo.

The Focal CMS 65 are very nice sounding a mate just got a pair. I've also heard very good things about the APS Klasik you might want to see if you can demo them somewhere, new Polish manufacturer, just under €1,000.

If cost were not an issue these would be my next monitors. But at €5k they are just out of my league...
http://www.amphion.fi/en/create/products/two15/

.


It's not that I dont like them, I want best accuracy for price in a monitor and the adams no longer offer that, there are other solutions at that price point that dont have the problem that ribbons have in a 2 way system.
A7s are good for high end clarity but mid range? I can spot those problems when I master for people with em, always some issue at the crossover point.
These are small issues, but the OP has the choice to avoid them.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:32 pm 
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I have not tested any of the monitors yet, but ive been looking at the spectre s8 and they seem to impress a lot of people. I was just thinking, the dsp menas they have a "computer" inside right? Am i all wrong when i think they mat be more prone to break sometime in the future, and that it might be harder to get them repaired compared to bigger brands like genelec?


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:20 pm 
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pimo wrote:
I have not tested any of the monitors yet, but ive been looking at the spectre s8 and they seem to impress a lot of people. I was just thinking, the dsp menas they have a "computer" inside right? Am i all wrong when i think they mat be more prone to break sometime in the future, and that it might be harder to get them repaired compared to bigger brands like genelec?


thought the same thing after reading about how they do it. I wonder how stable this is over time. Still very curious about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:13 pm 
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Most actives have "DSP" in the crossover network (including genelec which use active crossovers and their ISS DSP), which is what they are talking about here.

I`m not sure how it makes them more prone to break, or at least I don`t see the sceptres as being more problematic than any other active, even the amps in the majority of active monitors use chip based amps such as the LM3875. It`s one of the reasons I am going back to passive this year.

It`s not something to be too concerned about unless you are an utter freak like me.

Actives do go wrong more commonly than you might think, it is generally the amps that go, not the crossovers.

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