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 Post subject: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:42 am 
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In a few months me and my mrs will move to a new apartment with more space, a better room (about 7x4m) and possibilities for me to make some acoustic treatment. Ive figured this would be a logic point for me to upgrade my krk rokit 6 monitors for something more exciting.

Ive been looking at the following and would love to hear your thoughts and opinions?

Adam a7x
Adam a8x
EVE audio SC207
EVE audio SC208
Neumann KH 120 A
Genelec 8030

I cant really decide if i should go for monitors with big woofers that go low in the sub range, or if i should go for something like the Neuman KH 120 and add a sub further on.

Im also not sure if i should try and save up for something like this:
Event opals
Focal twin 6
Neumann KH 310

Any thoughts or experience would be appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:32 am 
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Well the simple answer is go for the A7x's (not the A8x!). If you can get more money together then hell yeah Focal Twin's
or larger Neumann's would be a completely different league... or maybe even look at Amphion.

In reality... maybe you should go hear some of them, monitors are a very personal thing... I hate Genelecs and love Adams, others are the opposite.

KH 120 A with a sub would be sweet too, they are extremely accurate monitors.


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:37 am 
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The Opals are probably worth saving up for. But I read they are out of production now and a mark 2 on its way


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:45 am 
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I changed my mind about Event Opal since a few months ago. Now when I have a broader reference spectrum I can honestly say they are not worth the price these days.

You want Focal Solo 6 or Neumann KH120 / Adam7x. If you want to go higher you already covered the bigger Neumann and Focals yourself.

I'd say you'll be surprised how well the KH120 holds up without sub in a decently treated room.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:13 am 
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Yep. The Neumanns are pretty decent.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:33 pm 
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Integrated sub is generally better than going separate sub which can be more problematic for a number of reasons.

I would avoid the low end adams as they use folded ribbon tweeters. FRT are great in a 3 way system, but in 2 way they don't cover the high mids very well, right down at the crossover point (not a problem on the smaller adams such as a5 as the woofer covers some mid), FRTs are great for high frequencies but their mechanical weakness is at the bottom of their frequency range which is why they need reinforcement from a mid driver.

Try out the neumanns and the gens, see what works for you.

Wether or you need a sub, integrated or not, depends on your room size and treatment.

Opals and focals are great monitors, but not for small rooms.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:03 pm 
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What's wrong with a7x tweeters?


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:40 pm 
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Exactly what I said

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:16 pm 
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I guess the Neumann monitors are the best option then. Good to know what I need to save up for!


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:10 am 
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Taken from a speaker design technical

Quote:
Ribbons don’t respond particularly well in the middle frequency region because they don’t usually work well at their lower frequency limits, where dome tweeters are still on song. As a result the majority of speakers with ribbon tweeters are three way systems, meaning that they include a dedicated midrange driver. There are hidden traps for the unwary here too, as the dispersion of midrange drivers near their high frequency limits tend to become very directional and may not work well where they overlap with the ribbon’s output. Very few ribbon tweeters will work down below 2.5 kHz, and one consequence is that crossover designers are forced to use high order filters in their crossover networks which can be problematic.

Scandinavian manufacturer Dali has gone to the extent of designing a novel twin driver tweeter assembly, which includes a moving coil midrange unit combined with a high frequency ribbon sharing a single faceplate. There are some good two-way ribbons, an example of which is the Monitor Audio PL100, but they’re few and far between.

The bottom line here is that ribbons tweeters are no panacea for the limitations of alternative dome based technologies. They offer some real musical benefits, but equally they introduce problems of their own. The ribbons themselves are necessarily very light and as a result this means they tend to be both fragile and very expensive, though it is usually possible to rebuild a ‘blown’ ribbon.


Essentially, the 2 way adams with the crossover point is right at the lower performance limit of the tweeter. This means the woofer has to try to perform up at 2.5k, not easy for a 7 or 8 inch driver when it is trying to drive all the way down to 40hz
The consequence is that the dynamic response and time alignment in the mids is a little off. The woofer just doesnt have the time response (its a woofer, its not meant to) to deal properly at that freq area, and the tweeter is weak and a little distorted down here.

In short they aren't too accurate in the upper mids. And it leads to some mid forward mixes.
The A5s however, with the smaller woofer, can cope with this crossover.

Ribbon tweaters are great in a 3 way system though.

Its not something you cant deal with, but if you dont have to, why bother?

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:05 am 
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Thanks for great help!
With voidloss info i think i will take the Adam and eve monitors of the list.

That leaves me with genelec 8030 and neumann kh 120. Am i wrong to think i would prefer something that goes all the way down in the subs? I mean the KH 120 will leave me guessing below 54hz, or am i wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:42 am 
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How big is your room, is it treated?

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:07 am 
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I dont have the exact measures now, but its around 7-8x4m. I will treat it, will probably build two big traps in the corners + some panels on the first reflection points.


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:21 am 
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Now when you nailed it down to two options, take them home and listen when some treatment is up.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:04 pm 
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Yeah you should be ok with a larger 3 way if you deal with the bass. Youll need more than 2 traps to keep the lows under control below 100hz.

Also dont discount the presonus sceptre S8, which is a really great speaker, the imaging is unrivalled.
Also the Eve sc307 and k&h O 300D

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:53 pm 
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Very happy with my 8030's over here.
Got them to this in my treated room (3m x 4,6m):
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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:02 pm 
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Lost to the Void wrote:
Taken from a speaker design technical

Quote:
Ribbons don’t respond particularly well in the middle frequency region because they don’t usually work well at their lower frequency limits, where dome tweeters are still on song. As a result the majority of speakers with ribbon tweeters are three way systems, meaning that they include a dedicated midrange driver. There are hidden traps for the unwary here too, as the dispersion of midrange drivers near their high frequency limits tend to become very directional and may not work well where they overlap with the ribbon’s output. Very few ribbon tweeters will work down below 2.5 kHz, and one consequence is that crossover designers are forced to use high order filters in their crossover networks which can be problematic.

Scandinavian manufacturer Dali has gone to the extent of designing a novel twin driver tweeter assembly, which includes a moving coil midrange unit combined with a high frequency ribbon sharing a single faceplate. There are some good two-way ribbons, an example of which is the Monitor Audio PL100, but they’re few and far between.

The bottom line here is that ribbons tweeters are no panacea for the limitations of alternative dome based technologies. They offer some real musical benefits, but equally they introduce problems of their own. The ribbons themselves are necessarily very light and as a result this means they tend to be both fragile and very expensive, though it is usually possible to rebuild a ‘blown’ ribbon.


Essentially, the 2 way adams with the crossover point is right at the lower performance limit of the tweeter. This means the woofer has to try to perform up at 2.5k, not easy for a 7 or 8 inch driver when it is trying to drive all the way down to 40hz
The consequence is that the dynamic response and time alignment in the mids is a little off. The woofer just doesnt have the time response (its a woofer, its not meant to) to deal properly at that freq area, and the tweeter is weak and a little distorted down here.

In short they aren't too accurate in the upper mids. And it leads to some mid forward mixes.
The A5s however, with the smaller woofer, can cope with this crossover.

Ribbon tweaters are great in a 3 way system though.

Its not something you cant deal with, but if you dont have to, why bother?


Well damn, looks like I'm shit out of luck in that case. I think that's why I cross-reference mix with them anyways to make sure that what I'm hearing is correct. I've heard that inverted dome tweeters are the best bang for the buck at the 2-way range of monitors.


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:12 am 
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Senko wrote:
What's wrong with a7x tweeters?



Nothing, they are outstanding monitors for the price range. Go listen for yourself, there's a reason they are so loved and widely used!


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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:52 am 
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Nothing is "wrong" with the a7x tweeters, it's the compromise of design in the cabinet in certain speakers. When they're allowed to handle too much of the frequency spectrum downwards the middle. They, by design, cannot deliver good output below 2khz I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Another mid budget monitor thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:41 am 
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msl wrote:
Senko wrote:
What's wrong with a7x tweeters?



Nothing, they are outstanding monitors for the price range. Go listen for yourself, there's a reason they are so loved and widely used!


.



Love em so much. Still one of my best purchases.

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