fader levels in daw

[brian]

just wondering what peoples views here are on this, when i did a course in logic a while back we were told to keep the 'master' and 'output' channels at -6db and just keep an eye on all other intrument /audio/bus channels, making sure never to go over 0db.

been reading on other forums the exact opposite, people saying have your master kept at 0bd and all other channels between -8db to -12db.

[Críoch]

Thats what I would do when I used Logic too Brian.

Now that I'm on Ableton, I'm following this advice


http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/ ... er-at-0db/

I still find though that my brain is "Logic" when it comes to the mixer in Live. I usually have to do a bit of subtraction when I start to set levels in Live.. which brings my mind to a shuddering halt!

[brian]

yea thats one of the links i was reading, should i apply that in logic i wonder.

[gurr13r]

Ive been advised to have the master at -5db to give some space for the mastering engineer to work, as for the instrument channels as long as their not clipping ie. going past 0db you will be fine.
Its not like in the analog times when clipping would fuck up your gear.

[Críoch]

Well.. I think that yerman on W2TE's central argument was that Live's plugs, like the simpler etc.. are set @ -12db.. so thats where that specifically emanates from (if anyone hasnt read it).

I dont think its a real problem keeping low. The more headroom you have probably the better, yeah?

Can you have too much headroom? I dont know, but I think its ok *shrugs@impending backlash*

There are some Logic guys & some mastering guys on here - so I'm sure there will be a few opinions coming this way soon

@Sean.. I dont think that clipping analog was a bad thing. Clipping the master seems to be the cardinal sin.

Interestingly (and just to confuse things..), I remember reading somewhere that you could run the Levels on tracks in Logic red - and it doesnt matter.. just was long as the master is grand.

[Ant]

I think that the logic behind his argument is seriously flawed. Two points:

Firstly the reason that the drum rack and simpler are set to -12db isn't because the people at Ableton think that is the best way to work. It is because when you set the velocity to 100% it plays at exactly 0db.

Also the audio engine in Ableton uses a 32 bit floating point so there ishould be as much headroom on each of the channels as you could want. If you run them into the red all the way, it still shouldn't distort - this isn't true of the master channel though.

BUT I do use this method and the improvement in my mixes was instant and a dramatic. I suspect that it has something to do with signal flow through VST and effects, or maybe it is just paying attention to the levels from the start.

[Lost to the Void]

Yep, master channel on 0db all other channels low.
Always pay attention to levels BETWEEN plugins in chains as some plugins can clip regardless of the DAW internal headroom.

I use analog gain path emulation (sknote stripbus and Sonimuscan satson), to control my gain paths the old school way, and it really makes a lot of differences to my mixes.

[Opuswerk]

Before i got my mixer, i was always keeping the faders in live at -6db top. When there's a lot of channels running, this usually pushes the master close to -2, -3db. Depending on the track i'd sometimes have to pull the master fader down to give the ME more room for mastering. But of all my releases, this has only happened once.
As Lost to the Void said, even though there theoretically is as much headroom as possible in 32 bit float, the individual plugins can cause quite a great deal of distortion themselves. When you sum them all up, it creates quite an unpleasant background noise in my opinion.

[Mattias]

Always pay attention to levels BETWEEN plugins in chains as some plugins can clip regardless of the DAW internal headroom.

I use analog gain path emulation (sknote stripbus and Sonimuscan satson), to control my gain paths the old school way, and it really makes a lot of differences to my mixes.

Solid advice here fellas. Im doing the exact same thing. Also the Sknote Stripbus deserves to be mentioned one extra time, all their plugins are good in fact.
I use an analog mixer myself however.

[madATme]

I never barely touch the faders untli final mix somtimes even then i dont. I work with the utility plugin form ableton wich i set to -8db by default. so i just drag them to the new channels. On the Master i allways have a limiter as nearly everyone here.
Oh and my apc40 template is set up that when the faders are all the way up its at 0db.

@Lost to Void: True man so true

[gabe DM]

I have been told from many mastering studio to send mixed tracks at maximum -5 or -6 db. therefore I set the kk (being the foudation of my current production) to that lvl and build everything else around it, paying attention not to pass the threshold of -5 on the master channel.
is it correct?
On my master channel I usually set up a light compressor plugin to glue things togheter and a couple of eq tio filter out lows and to shape a little the overall sound. but because I send the track to mastering studio let them compress, limit and eq.

[Lost to the Void]

Well, mastering is my job, so I have a long winded take on final levels.

Essentially if you keep your master at 0db and then work with lower levels at your faders, just keep an eye on the master level and don`t let it get too high, if it does, grab all your faders and pull them down.

A lot of mastering studios say, -3 or -6 or whatever max level, but really, this means nothing if all the tracks are compressed and squeezed and then a compressor/limiter is on the final out.

I ask for 3-6db of dynamic movement minimum, in the mix. So at least 3-6 db of movement between RMS and Peak
Or using the DR reading a DR of 6 is optimal.

This gives the engineer more room to work with for corrective EQ, transient changes, mid/side balancing and final comp and limit.

I thoroughly recommend all producers get either the
TT Dynamic Range Meter (which is a free plugin, hard to find now, but I can make it available myself for Subsekt if need be)

or the Brainworx Meter (not free)

Both have a meter for dynamic which tells you how squeezed your mix is, very handy.

[gabe DM]

You rock Steve, so how do I check if the difference between Peaks and RMS is in between the range?

i found this page with the download link for TT Dynamic Range Meter, didn't tested yet.

[brian]

excellent stuff, cheers for all the replies

[sam]

I like to keep everything down low too. Master stays at 0 and channels are usually way down especially when using saturation and distortion.

I use my mixer as a fancy volume knob to get things up to a realistic volume. It's got some good metering which I'm used to so no matter what's coming out of my interface I can use it to have some volume consistency when I'm working.

This is a nice free trim plugin which is good for watching RMS that I find helpful when mixing:

http://www.sonalksis.com/freeg.htm

[Patriek]

The amount of information is getting to much! Then again, i am really glad that i am on the right track already. Lots of advice that i am reading, i am already applying (sometimes by accident ).

[gabe DM]

great Sam, so this plug can be used to check the difference between RMS and Peaks as Steve suggested to do. cool, can't wait to test it!

[Rob Mitshi]

Start out with the master @ - 3 db, while making the track, when finished composing I put the master @ 0.0 Db and limiter goes on top the master.
Channels never go above 0.0 Db, when a sound needs to be more clear, its usually being supressed by another sound, sometimes making a paricular sound more loud or clear, means to turn other clashing sounds down a bit. After doing this the sound i want to be more clear or loud usually pops out on top again. might not make sence, but its just my 2 cents.

[gabe DM]

Hey Rob, it does makes a lot of sense to me cause many time, lowering the faders, leaves space for more details to clear out.