problems with M4L LFO's

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Hades
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

no need to worry about all that !
as I always say to my gay friends :
like every decent normal hetero, I put on a fresh pair of boxer shorts every year !
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Hades
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

btw, what's the reason for your return ?
did you finally manage to get out of that straitjacket ?

or did you really go to Brazil to comfort all those lonely poor women and it's only now you finally got back ?
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UN!T B
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by UN!T B »

I deleted all of my accounts on the forums I was on....
Here gs, muffs, everything except the instrument dev forums...
I had just made an account so that if I wanted to contribute it would be possible...
My contribution this week was calling you a cunt. I would say we are off to a pretty good start...
Hades wrote: stop being such a total dick, honestly.

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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

Steve's "fuckflaps" was more original though ! :lol:
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Mono-xID
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Mono-xID »

Well Hades, as you can see you're such a cunt, even the digital LFO's refuse to work for you. That's low as fuck.
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by UN!T B »

Mono-xID wrote:Well Hades, as you can see you're such a cunt, even the digital LFO's refuse to work for you. That's low as fuck.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
CUN!T thinks this is very funny! :D
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

btw CUN!T, I tested HW with safari this afternoon and all went perfect, nothing of the trouble last year that made me switch to firefox.

my settings were the same as always, so I'm totally puzzled as to why or what.

obviously must be me being a cunt,

when mono hipster wants me to play that part, I must play that part ! :)
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UN!T B
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by UN!T B »

Hades wrote: obviously must be me being a cunt,
obviously. :lol:
Hades wrote: stop being such a total dick, honestly.

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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Mono-xID »

UN!T B wrote:
Hades wrote: obviously must be me being a cunt,
obviously. :lol:
I'd say definetly !
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

Mono-xID wrote:
UN!T B wrote:
Hades wrote: obviously must be me being a cunt,
obviously. :lol:
I'd say definetly !
now all you your hipster Berlin ass has gotta know is how to spell the word properly... :mrgreen:

and of course I gotta be the total cunt pointing that out to you ;)
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Mono-xID »

I got the foreign language bonus but you're stil a c u n t ..l :lol:
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

funny thing is, my employer would pay me like 50€ more for extra language skills,
but you gotta take exams for it. I would pass all 3 (French, English and German) easily enough,
but each exam consists of 3 parts, the last being a test of how good you speak the language.
And for the German, there is no one of the "higher up" people that is capable of actually taking the test. :lol: :lol:

And it's one big set-up anyway, cause no matter if you do the tests, you gotta take the calls anyway.
Hell, I've been switching between 4 languages for my work for the last 13 years, counting my years in Germany,
and now they're gonna say you gotta take an exam to get the bonus,
ow fuck off you CUNTS !!!
I should just tell 'em that, that would certainly make me pass the test ! :mrgreen:
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UN!T B
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by UN!T B »

Hades wrote:
funny thing is, my employer would pay me like 50€ more for extra language skills,


Yeah I am not so sure about that. :mrgreen:
but you gotta take exams for it.
Gotta is not a word in the English language. The correct word and grammar is "have to"... :D

I would pass all 3 (French, English and German) easily enough,
but each exam consists of 3 parts, the last being a test of how good you speak the language.
Its not "how good" you speak the language. Its how well you speak English. I think think you have a grasp of the basics. Still needs improvement. :)

And for the German, there is no one of the "higher up" people that is capable of actually taking the test. :lol: :lol:
Well this isn't completely incorrect I can tell you are still struggling to find the right words. We call "higher up" managers in English. :mrgreen:

And it's one big set-up anyway, cause no matter if you do the tests, you gotta take the calls anyway.
No need for the hyphen, set up, its 2 separate words.


Hell, I've been switching between 4 languages for my work for the last 13 years, counting my years in Germany,
This is likely why you are so confused. Focus on learning 1 thing at a time. ;)


and now they're gonna say you gotta take an exam to get the bonus,
[b]ow fuck off you CUNTS !!![/b]
This is correct! :D :lol:
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

UN!T B wrote:
Hades wrote:
funny thing is, my employer would pay me like 50€ more for extra language skills,


Yeah I am not so sure about that. :mrgreen:
but you gotta take exams for it.
Gotta is not a word in the English language. The correct word and grammar is "have to"... :D

I would pass all 3 (French, English and German) easily enough,
but each exam consists of 3 parts, the last being a test of how good you speak the language.
Its not "how good" you speak the language. Its how well you speak English. I think think you have a grasp of the basics. Still needs improvement. :)

And for the German, there is no one of the "higher up" people that is capable of actually taking the test. :lol: :lol:
Well this isn't completely incorrect I can tell you are still struggling to find the right words. We call "higher up" managers in English. :mrgreen:

And it's one big set-up anyway, cause no matter if you do the tests, you gotta take the calls anyway.
No need for the hyphen, set up, its 2 separate words.


Hell, I've been switching between 4 languages for my work for the last 13 years, counting my years in Germany,
This is likely why you are so confused. Focus on learning 1 thing at a time. ;)


and now they're gonna say you gotta take an exam to get the bonus,
[b]ow fuck off you CUNTS !!![/b]
This is correct! :D :lol:
ow, look how cute, he's being a total smart-ass and correcting me cause I was being a tiny smart-ass showing a spelling mistake.
If you're only typing 1 word, better spell it correctly, no ? :D
(I even noticed I made a typo with "you" and "your" in my message to Mono, but then I was drunk when typing that so...)
Must have even taken you quite a longer time to find something to nag about than for me to type that reply though.

"gotta" is used all over the fucking place. If you want to mention that as a "mistake", think how many mistakes you're saying each day, or all those other persons that are native English speakers. Hell, think about all the music where they constantly use "gotta".
It's funny, but when I have total assholes on my line, I stop saying stuff like "gotta" and switch to "have to", and start using the most refined words I can think of to get my message across. I suppose it's a counter-reaction to the ever expanding stupidity of most people on this planet.

o-ow, mixed up "good" and "well", damn, now nobody understood me on that one.
I was totally being unclear and speaking in tongues right there. :D

I wasn't speaking about managers mr dickface, I was speaking about the folks that do the language tests at the place I work at.
11 years ago when I did my job interview, it was someone from HR (who asked about my German, and stopped the interview as soon as I switched to German cause he was incapable of speaking it properly :lol: , though he tested my French and English before that by having short conversations)
but nowadays, it's not someone from HR directly anymore, it's someone from... well, nobody really knows anymore. :?
(seriously !)
so I just call them people from "higher up" for lack of a better word.
People you never see on the workfloor and whose function or job description is very unclear.
Also, I never see my managers. If I see those twice a year I'll be lucky.
btw, my managers would be totally incapable of speaking those languages (my closest "manager" (the one above my supervisors, not a real big manager though) can't even speak French for fucks' sake)

set up
set up
set up
set up
set up
set up
set up
set up
set up
set up

there I typed it 10 times for you, just like I make my oldest daughter re-write (or is it rewrite ?? oh oh, possibly another 10 more to do).
I will forget next time though. :D

I have to say though : personally I think spelling mistakes are far worse than grammar mistakes.

anyhow : my dearest CUN!T,

unless you speak 4 languages and can switch between all of these even mid-sentence if you are being asked to do so,
and you can understand all 4 languages, plus you can understand many variations and dialects (try the Marseille-accent, try the horrible Schweizerdeutsch, hell just try to understand some Algemien Antwaaaarps)
plus you can read books in all 4 languages,
I take no such critique from you ! :mrgreen:
It's probably only because you're Canadian that you actually speak some French, but otherwise you'd more than likely just be another native English-speaking person that can hardly speak any other language. There are millions and millions of those, and yet they still think they can be a smart-ass correcting the English of folks that know a lot more about languages than they ever will in their whole lives. :mrgreen:
And they can't be arsed much to learn another language since they expect the whole world to speak their language.
Just like most of the French-speaking people on this planet, including the southern part of my country (unfortunately), have the same habit.

dus, beste vriend, je kan mijn dikke lul kussen, want ik betwijfel of jij een taal tevoorschijn kan toveren om mij in mijn hemd mee te zetten,
tenzij je zo'n stom online vertaal-programma gaat gebruiken. Maar dat is alleen maar boter aan de galg als je het mij vraagt.
Dat gaat echt niet veel zoden aan de dijk brengen hoor.
Water naar zee dragen en zo.
Doen alsof mijn kennis van de Engelse taal als een tang op een varken slaat, slaat helaas nergens op ! :mrgreen:
Een Nederlander zou hoogstwaarschijnlijk gewoon zeggen "lullo !!" ipv ons gebruikelijke koosnaampje hier op subsekt.
In Vlaanderen zou het afhangen van welke regio je afkomstig bent of in welke regio je jou op dat moment in bevindt.
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk zou dat zelfs in Nederland van hetzelfde laken een broek zijn.
Benieuwd wat je vertaal-programmatje gaat opleveren voor bovenstaande !
Toi toi toi, zouden sommige van mijn meer knullige bovenburen zeggen. :mrgreen:


One of my best friends is an English teacher, she always says my English is about as good as it gets, but I keep making one grammar mistake.
She keeps reminding me which one it is, and then I keep forgetting it. :lol:

one of the first rules our French teacher taught us in high school : just make sure people understand you.
If you don't know an exact word : find another way of expressing yourself so that they know what you're talking about.
I think I'm doing pretty well considering I no doubt have the highest character output of all subsekt members. :oops:

But let me be crystal clear : you're a TOTAL CUNT !!!


:lol: :lol:


now I'm off to play piano for a day,
cause why did I even waste my time with typing all this ? :?
I'm a compulsive typer/replyer/... I must be.
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Hades
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

oh yeah, yesterday my ensemble started to produce clicks again when browsing through audio,
and I was using firefox.

There is absolutely no logic to be found in the erratic behaviour, I'm just happy it only happens once in a while and not when recording in ableton.
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Alume »

Hades wrote: dus, beste vriend, je kan mijn dikke lul kussen, want ik betwijfel of jij een taal tevoorschijn kan toveren om mij in mijn hemd mee te zetten,
tenzij je zo'n stom online vertaal-programma gaat gebruiken. Maar dat is alleen maar boter aan de galg als je het mij vraagt.
Dat gaat echt niet veel zoden aan de dijk brengen hoor.
Water naar zee dragen en zo.
Doen alsof mijn kennis van de Engelse taal als een tang op een varken slaat, slaat helaas nergens op ! :mrgreen:
Een Nederlander zou hoogstwaarschijnlijk gewoon zeggen "lullo !!" ipv ons gebruikelijke koosnaampje hier op subsekt.
In Vlaanderen zou het afhangen van welke regio je afkomstig bent of in welke regio je jou op dat moment in bevindt.
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk zou dat zelfs in Nederland van hetzelfde laken een broek zijn.
Benieuwd wat je vertaal-programmatje gaat opleveren voor bovenstaande !
Toi toi toi, zouden sommige van mijn meer knullige bovenburen zeggen. :mrgreen:
8-)

Oktagon
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Oktagon »

I ran into this problem (distortion with Max LFOs, particularly when driving gain controls at higher rates) recently and managed to get to the bottom of it.

Summary:

The Max devices that come with Ableton that allow you to map to Ableton controls have built in downsampling that adds distortion. Since Max was updated last year you can remove the downsampling from your devices and use the new built in smoothing to get distortion free results while still allowing you to manage cpu load.

More info:

It turns out a lot of the bundled max devices downsample the signal before driving an Ableton control, presumably to save cpu. This is hard coded in the max patch and basically makes the LFO not much use at higher rates. The envelope follower has a similar problem.

There actually is an LFO device which allows you to control the downsampling rate in the included api examples, look for 'Max Api Ctrl1LFO' in Max Audio Effects. With this device the 'Output Rate' parameter controls the amount of downsampling to do, smaller values do less downsampling and will update Live more often. Try mapping this LFO to mixer gain on a sine wave. At the default update interval of 50ms you get obvious distortion and glitching from aliasing of the lfo. As you decrease the update interval down to 1ms the distortion becomes much less obvious.

To alter the downsampling rate on the default Max LFO you need to edit the patch in two places since for some reason the downsampling is done twice. So open the device in Max and unfreeze/exit presentation mode. The first place downsampling happens is in the patcher 'signalScaling' so open that. Look for the 'downsamp~ 512' object and remove it from the patch. The other place is in the MapButtonLFO bpatcher so you'll need to edit that as well. So open it, exit presentation mode. Open the 'Mapping' patcher. You'll see a second 'downsamp~ 512' object. Remove it as before.

Then exit + save your MapButtonLFO bpatcher and your LFO device calling it something like 'LFO highcpu'. If you try using this LFO now it should allow high rates without distortion. You can do a similar thing with the envelope follower.

But there's more... turns out last year Max 7.3.0 added built in smoothing/interpolation support to live.remote~ (which is what you use to control Live parameters from a Max device). This will guarantee no stepping/distortion when controlling live parameters from Max, and is actually enabled by default but not really working with the LFO device because of the downsampling we just removed which is happening before the signal gets to live.remote~. There is an update rate control associated with it which defaults to 1ms, you can increase this to decrease cpu load while still getting the smoothing. So you'll get no distortion, but if your update rate is much slower than your LFO rate then you will miss some of the oscillation.

I guess in an ideal world the LFO would be able to determine an optimal value for the smoothing update rate based on the LFO frequency, but I've just left it at 1ms and my cpu usage seems ok so far.

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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Hades »

Oktagon wrote: I guess in an ideal world the LFO would be able to determine an optimal value for the smoothing update rate based on the LFO frequency, but I've just left it at 1ms and my cpu usage seems ok so far.
Thank you for this very detailed and helpful reply.
Not only gives me a proper explanation as to why this happened, but also a decent solution.

The LFO's you use now, I presume you did still remove the downsampling in them and were only then fine with your smoothing knob ? I mean, you didn't specifically mention it, so I just like to check.

Ever since I stopped using them, I always used automation envelopes in arrangement view instead, and just draw them in by hand. I always do this for volume, as boring as this can be, and some times for panning, though only when it has to be very specific, otherwise I'm usually fine with Live's or Soundtoys' panning devices.

Tbh, at the current moment, I don't think I'd want to start using them again.
I prefer the manual treatment, even if that usually means I lose another 2 hours or so.
It's more detailed than setting up a random LFO to do the same job, and I've had tracks where I literally changed the volume of each note for 2 or 3 sounds, just because they would interact differently together.
It's a pain in the ass, but it's more detailed and exact, and I love details. :mrgreen:

And I think I would prefer to avoid using up extra CPU as well.
I'm using different plugins now than I use to do back then so I'm usually at 50% for each project already, and then always gotta start freezing stuff or rendering them back to audio.
I suspect using the M4L LFO's again would just make that happen even sooner.

Nonetheless, thank you again for your very helpful reply ! ;)
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Oktagon
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Re: problems with M4L LFO's

Post by Oktagon »

Hades wrote:The LFO's you use now, I presume you did still remove the downsampling in them and were only then fine with your smoothing knob ? I mean, you didn't specifically mention it, so I just like to check.
Yes exactly, the downsampling needs to happen at the same time as the smoothing within live.remote~ itself. I suspect the hardcoded 'downsamp~ 512' that comes with the built in devices was just a hack to work around performance issues with live.remote~, but I haven't seen huge performance issues with the default smoothing/downsampling value in live.remote~ of 1ms which would correspond to 'downsamp~ 44'. Just removing the manual downsampling and letting live.remote~ handle it fixes the distortion in all cases so it then just becomes a question of how fast an LFO do you want to allow.
Ever since I stopped using them, I always used automation envelopes in arrangement view instead, and just draw them in by hand. I always do this for volume, as boring as this can be, and some times for panning, though only when it has to be very specific, otherwise I'm usually fine with Live's or Soundtoys' panning devices.

Tbh, at the current moment, I don't think I'd want to start using them again.
I prefer the manual treatment, even if that usually means I lose another 2 hours or so.
It's more detailed than setting up a random LFO to do the same job, and I've had tracks where I literally changed the volume of each note for 2 or 3 sounds, just because they would interact differently together.
It's a pain in the ass, but it's more detailed and exact, and I love details. :mrgreen:
Yes that makes sense, as you say you want the human variation you only get from automation curves. I guess sometimes it's easier to express the variation through automation of an LFO or a chain of LFOs (eg. an LFO frequency sweep) so I still have use for them. Plus I'm shit at drawing complex automation so I normally put that off as long as possible.

The other thing is the above issue applies to things like the envelope follower as well - the default one distorts and can't respond to fast varying input signals because of the downsampling.
And I think I would prefer to avoid using up extra CPU as well.
I'm using different plugins now than I use to do back then so I'm usually at 50% for each project already, and then always gotta start freezing stuff or rendering them back to audio.
I suspect using the M4L LFO's again would just make that happen even sooner.
Yes I'll have to wait and see if this causes CPU issues. I did some testing with tons of LFOs and it didn't seem a problem but it might depend on what I'm driving with the LFO.


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