Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about it.

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helloitsmeagain
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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by helloitsmeagain »

Thought you guys might be into this: Steve Reich’s Clapping Music is a game that improves your rhythm by challenging you to play Steve Reich’s ground-breaking work – a piece of music performed entirely by clapping. Tap in time with the constantly shifting pattern, and progress through all of the variations. If you slip up or your accuracy falls too low, it’s game over.

get it for free here: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id94648721 ... &at=10lPzZ
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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Koichi »

Very great thread!

Maybe these Max4Live patches may be of interest - although it sounds like you guys know what you're doing and may not even need these:

Polyrhythmus - 'modular euclidean rhythm builder'
http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... hm-builder

And this one http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... -sequencer
Which is a stage driven sequencer, can build up great polyrhythms with multi instance and diff sequence step lengths.

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Hepta »

helloitsmeagain wrote:Thought you guys might be into this: Steve Reich’s Clapping Music is a game that improves your rhythm by challenging you to play Steve Reich’s ground-breaking work – a piece of music performed entirely by clapping. Tap in time with the constantly shifting pattern, and progress through all of the variations. If you slip up or your accuracy falls too low, it’s game over.

get it for free here: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id94648721 ... &at=10lPzZ
Cool app! Thanks for the tip.

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by paclos »

Reading this old post......... I´m fighting to put a 3/4 Melody into a 4/4 Kick pattern...

There are some kind of "trick" to fit it into a 4/4 Grid? Like after 16 "kicks" just cutting it, whatever it is (normaly it sounds like shit...)

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Southpaw »

Why is it necessary to make the kick pattern 4/4? A kick/hat or kick/hat/clap can work just as easily in 3/4 or 6/4 or 6/8 etc as will your melody. Just avoid silly things like white noise builds and explosive drops which other people use to punctuate stuff in 4/4 centred around 8 and 16 bars etc. When combining polymeters and polyrhythms, you're gonna get into a weird mess if you are still thinking in the 4/4 paradigm, just let things interract and evolve instead of trying to make things have some sort of 4/4 resolution. Kick pattern can be just the one kick retriggered on every quarter note, it doesn't matter.

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by paclos »

Southpaw wrote:Why is it necessary to make the kick pattern 4/4? A kick/hat or kick/hat/clap can work just as easily in 3/4 or 6/4 or 6/8 etc as will your melody. Just avoid silly things like white noise builds and explosive drops which other people use to punctuate stuff in 4/4 centred around 8 and 16 bars etc. When combining polymeters and polyrhythms, you're gonna get into a weird mess if you are still thinking in the 4/4 paradigm, just let things interract and evolve instead of trying to make things have some sort of 4/4 resolution. Kick pattern can be just the one kick retriggered on every quarter note, it doesn't matter.

Because thinking on Djing it will be a shit to beatmatch :(

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Hades »

paclos wrote:
Southpaw wrote:Why is it necessary to make the kick pattern 4/4? A kick/hat or kick/hat/clap can work just as easily in 3/4 or 6/4 or 6/8 etc as will your melody. Just avoid silly things like white noise builds and explosive drops which other people use to punctuate stuff in 4/4 centred around 8 and 16 bars etc. When combining polymeters and polyrhythms, you're gonna get into a weird mess if you are still thinking in the 4/4 paradigm, just let things interract and evolve instead of trying to make things have some sort of 4/4 resolution. Kick pattern can be just the one kick retriggered on every quarter note, it doesn't matter.

Because thinking on Djing it will be a shit to beatmatch :(
I was listening to some Abdullah Rashim track a while back,
when I realized the kick was in 3/4.
I doubt people didn't play the track in their sets because of that.

Especially if people are DJ'ing digitally,
then there should be more than enough options to mix in the more difficult tracks...
If they would just use some DJ tool tracks in-between the previous track and the more difficult track, and use their EQ wisely, it should never be a problem, unless you got yourself a lazy DJ... 8-) ;)
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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by paclos »

Hades wrote:
paclos wrote:
Southpaw wrote:Why is it necessary to make the kick pattern 4/4? A kick/hat or kick/hat/clap can work just as easily in 3/4 or 6/4 or 6/8 etc as will your melody. Just avoid silly things like white noise builds and explosive drops which other people use to punctuate stuff in 4/4 centred around 8 and 16 bars etc. When combining polymeters and polyrhythms, you're gonna get into a weird mess if you are still thinking in the 4/4 paradigm, just let things interract and evolve instead of trying to make things have some sort of 4/4 resolution. Kick pattern can be just the one kick retriggered on every quarter note, it doesn't matter.

Because thinking on Djing it will be a shit to beatmatch :(
I was listening to some Abdullah Rashim track a while back,
when I realized the kick was in 3/4.
I doubt people didn't play the track in their sets because of that.

Especially if people are DJ'ing digitally,
then there should be more than enough options to mix in the more difficult tracks...
If they would just use some DJ tool tracks in-between the previous track and the more difficult track, and use their EQ wisely, it should never be a problem, unless you got yourself a lazy DJ... 8-) ;)
There you are right.... :)

I was just wondering if there is some kind of "trick"

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Southpaw »

I'm not following at all sorry. What is difficult to beatmatch? Unless the entire track is in 3/4 what is the issue. What you've described is a track in 4/4 with some internal polyrhythm ( 3/4 ) That in itself doesn't cause beatmatching issues since any beatmacthing is exactly as normal, ie: done via the pulse/bpm/crotchet.

You can put any conflicting rhythms inside of your 4/4 track and it wouldn't affect beatmatching in the slightest, since the master pulse is 4/4 and you're mixing a 4/4 track like any other 4/4 track in your arsenal.

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Post by Hades »

I think he means it will be harder to mix with other tracks,
not just beat matching, which is as you say just the same.
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Post by paclos »

Southpaw wrote:I'm not following at all sorry. What is difficult to beatmatch? Unless the entire track is in 3/4 what is the issue. What you've described is a track in 4/4 with some internal polyrhythm ( 3/4 ) That in itself doesn't cause beatmatching issues since any beatmacthing is exactly as normal, ie: done via the pulse/bpm/crotchet.

You can put any conflicting rhythms inside of your 4/4 track and it wouldn't affect beatmatching in the slightest, since the master pulse is 4/4 and you're mixing a 4/4 track like any other 4/4 track in your arsenal.

The Track is 4/4. Then It comes a melody in on with 3/4.

If I just loop that melody on 3/4 over the 4/4, all the 4/4 changes (HH in for example, Claps, etc...) will sound good because the kick, but wrong because the melody is still running on 3/4.... and because that, you expect those "changes" at 3/4 instead of 4/4, because it sound "good".

I dont know if I´m clear enough....

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by off-key »

paclos wrote:Reading this old post......... I´m fighting to put a 3/4 Melody into a 4/4 Kick pattern...

There are some kind of "trick" to fit it into a 4/4 Grid? Like after 16 "kicks" just cutting it, whatever it is (normaly it sounds like shit...)
What sequencer are you using? Ableton will let you loop different clips at different time signatures so it's pretty straightforward.

Otherwise, you need to find the number of bars where the different time signatures all resolve so that they loop back to their respective beginning. For a combination of 3/4 and 4/4 rhythms that will be 3*4 = 12 bars at a minimum.

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Hades »

paclos wrote:
Southpaw wrote:I'm not following at all sorry. What is difficult to beatmatch? Unless the entire track is in 3/4 what is the issue. What you've described is a track in 4/4 with some internal polyrhythm ( 3/4 ) That in itself doesn't cause beatmatching issues since any beatmacthing is exactly as normal, ie: done via the pulse/bpm/crotchet.

You can put any conflicting rhythms inside of your 4/4 track and it wouldn't affect beatmatching in the slightest, since the master pulse is 4/4 and you're mixing a 4/4 track like any other 4/4 track in your arsenal.

The Track is 4/4. Then It comes a melody in on with 3/4.

If I just loop that melody on 3/4 over the 4/4, all the 4/4 changes (HH in for example, Claps, etc...) will sound good because the kick, but wrong because the melody is still running on 3/4.... and because that, you expect those "changes" at 3/4 instead of 4/4, because it sound "good".

I dont know if I´m clear enough....
you know what ?
I stopped DJ'ing maybe a decade ago.
When I was still an active DJ, digital DJ'ing was non-existent or very much in it's development stage.

The last 3 weeks, I finally got off my ass and started using the Traktor controller I bought maybe 1,5 years ago, and I fucking love it. Started using 3 to 4 decks after hardly 1 hour...
If DJ's can't mix different tracks together with this technology,
then it means they're simply not creative enough. :)

I just did another DJ session for a few hours,
and the main goal for me at the moment is to just import all my tracks,
which means I will just start to randomly mix all kinds of tracks from all kinds of genres
(just like the old days btw)
and I was mixing Gloria Swanson on top of techno tracks, or Nina Simone or New Order or...
God damn it, it's as easy as stampin' on little kittens if you are a little creative with your EQ and you know the tracks you're playing.

And tbh, I think that's currently the problem with most DJ's : they think getting the next "new thing" will make sure they're great, while I'm personally convinced that a great mix is far better off by the DJ knowing his tracks than the DJ showing off whatever he found in the buttport top 10 last week...

anyway, to get to the point : I am convinced that if DJ's can't mix tracks with polyrhythms nowadays and they're DJ'ing digitally,
it means they're just fucking lazy !! :)
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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by over9000 »

djing is easy even without traktor imo. its just a practice thing.
as you said, you just have to know the tracks. thats the most important thing. and you have to love them. all of them.
i always have to limit my self to aprox 100 tracks per genre, more i just cant remember.

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Post by Southpaw »

paclos wrote:
Southpaw wrote:I'm not following at all sorry. What is difficult to beatmatch? Unless the entire track is in 3/4 what is the issue. What you've described is a track in 4/4 with some internal polyrhythm ( 3/4 ) That in itself doesn't cause beatmatching issues since any beatmacthing is exactly as normal, ie: done via the pulse/bpm/crotchet.

You can put any conflicting rhythms inside of your 4/4 track and it wouldn't affect beatmatching in the slightest, since the master pulse is 4/4 and you're mixing a 4/4 track like any other 4/4 track in your arsenal.

The Track is 4/4. Then It comes a melody in on with 3/4.

If I just loop that melody on 3/4 over the 4/4, all the 4/4 changes (HH in for example, Claps, etc...) will sound good because the kick, but wrong because the melody is still running on 3/4.... and because that, you expect those "changes" at 3/4 instead of 4/4, because it sound "good".

I dont know if I´m clear enough....
Generally, if your DAW is set to 4/4 and you want to experiment with polyrhythms, it's better to think holistically rather than in chunks that put emphasis on 4/4. This means don't have things at the end of say bar 8 and the beginning of bar 9, ( like a reverse sound and then a crash/drop sound or whatever else people use ) because the internal patterns, like say your 3/4 pattern isn't in a state of resolution until multiples of 3, so like you've found, putting something in that would otherwise create a feeling of something happening etc doesn't really work because of the cycle of the 3/4 pattern at bar 8 or 16 etc etc. That doesn't mean put them instead at bar 12 either or bar 24. What I'm saying, is that I think it's better to stay away from that sort of stuff altogether and bring in elements then phase them out, mix them with other elements etc in a sort of live mix way.

This way, you're not adding some sort of confusion to it all by forcing the listener into a 4/4 track with an odd element added that never seems to fit.

That said, if you just want to push the 4/4 structure with a 3/4 element and had to find a way of ending that phrase at say 8 or 16 bars, then you'd have to alter it over the last part in a clever way that still resolves itself and makes sense. It wouldn't be truly polyrhythmic but it would then fit in with 8 & 16 bar chunks. That would take some experimentation and may simply ruin anything cool. Also, I obviously don't know the context or the melody but does it have to start on the downbeat of a bar? A 3/4 melody in 4/4 if started halfway through the first bar could reach the end of itself by bar 3 and have 2 patterns of itself by bar 5/end of bar 4. How that would work would totally depend on context and allsorts but it might be something you haven't considered.

Personally, if I were doing it, I'd just want to make it an evolving piece and not emphasize those 8 /16 bar chunks in any way which would also make me want to avoid claps or snares on the 2 & 4 as well. Standard hat patterns work fine as does a 4/4 kick and regular off-beat hat.

If you ever try some Euclidean rhythms, it quickly becomes apparent that it doesn't always make sense to use things like claps on the 2 & 4 and try to remove your arranging mindset out of 4/4 thinking - which typically includes 8 & 16 bar chunks. When those are removed, you get more 'lost' in the contrasting rhythms and you start changing things when it feels right as oppose to when the sequencer is approaching bar 33 or whatever.

Polyrhythms are certainly easier with percussive stuff rather than melodic stuff

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Post by Mattias »

Southpaw wrote:I'm not following at all sorry. What is difficult to beatmatch? Unless the entire track is in 3/4 what is the issue. What you've described is a track in 4/4 with some internal polyrhythm ( 3/4 ) That in itself doesn't cause beatmatching issues since any beatmacthing is exactly as normal, ie: done via the pulse/bpm/crotchet.

You can put any conflicting rhythms inside of your 4/4 track and it wouldn't affect beatmatching in the slightest, since the master pulse is 4/4 and you're mixing a 4/4 track like any other 4/4 track in your arsenal.
Exactly.

It doesn't make it more difficult to beat match at all. I've done tons of music in other signatures, the standard 4/4 with poly-rhythmic content and then
all sorts of weirdness. However for straight up dance music the 4/4 with poly-rhythmic content is usually the way to go for predictability while others can be fun too.
However too weird often throws both deejays and crowd off in my experience. Some may see it as a surprising effect but honestly surprises are better performed rather
then played in someone else's work unless the main goal with the set is to be totally unpredictable and experimental.
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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by paclos »

Southpaw wrote:
paclos wrote:
Southpaw wrote:I'm not following at all sorry. What is difficult to beatmatch? Unless the entire track is in 3/4 what is the issue. What you've described is a track in 4/4 with some internal polyrhythm ( 3/4 ) That in itself doesn't cause beatmatching issues since any beatmacthing is exactly as normal, ie: done via the pulse/bpm/crotchet.

You can put any conflicting rhythms inside of your 4/4 track and it wouldn't affect beatmatching in the slightest, since the master pulse is 4/4 and you're mixing a 4/4 track like any other 4/4 track in your arsenal.

The Track is 4/4. Then It comes a melody in on with 3/4.

If I just loop that melody on 3/4 over the 4/4, all the 4/4 changes (HH in for example, Claps, etc...) will sound good because the kick, but wrong because the melody is still running on 3/4.... and because that, you expect those "changes" at 3/4 instead of 4/4, because it sound "good".

I dont know if I´m clear enough....
Generally, if your DAW is set to 4/4 and you want to experiment with polyrhythms, it's better to think holistically rather than in chunks that put emphasis on 4/4. This means don't have things at the end of say bar 8 and the beginning of bar 9, ( like a reverse sound and then a crash/drop sound or whatever else people use ) because the internal patterns, like say your 3/4 pattern isn't in a state of resolution until multiples of 3, so like you've found, putting something in that would otherwise create a feeling of something happening etc doesn't really work because of the cycle of the 3/4 pattern at bar 8 or 16 etc etc. That doesn't mean put them instead at bar 12 either or bar 24. What I'm saying, is that I think it's better to stay away from that sort of stuff altogether and bring in elements then phase them out, mix them with other elements etc in a sort of live mix way.

This way, you're not adding some sort of confusion to it all by forcing the listener into a 4/4 track with an odd element added that never seems to fit.

That said, if you just want to push the 4/4 structure with a 3/4 element and had to find a way of ending that phrase at say 8 or 16 bars, then you'd have to alter it over the last part in a clever way that still resolves itself and makes sense. It wouldn't be truly polyrhythmic but it would then fit in with 8 & 16 bar chunks. That would take some experimentation and may simply ruin anything cool. Also, I obviously don't know the context or the melody but does it have to start on the downbeat of a bar? A 3/4 melody in 4/4 if started halfway through the first bar could reach the end of itself by bar 3 and have 2 patterns of itself by bar 5/end of bar 4. How that would work would totally depend on context and allsorts but it might be something you haven't considered.

Personally, if I were doing it, I'd just want to make it an evolving piece and not emphasize those 8 /16 bar chunks in any way which would also make me want to avoid claps or snares on the 2 & 4 as well. Standard hat patterns work fine as does a 4/4 kick and regular off-beat hat.

If you ever try some Euclidean rhythms, it quickly becomes apparent that it doesn't always make sense to use things like claps on the 2 & 4 and try to remove your arranging mindset out of 4/4 thinking - which typically includes 8 & 16 bar chunks. When those are removed, you get more 'lost' in the contrasting rhythms and you start changing things when it feels right as oppose to when the sequencer is approaching bar 33 or whatever.

Polyrhythms are certainly easier with percussive stuff rather than melodic stuff
Thank you for your long answer. That was what I wanted to know :)

I will go for a 3/4 Pattern all the way of the Track. I dont really care if it will be "hard" to play. Good Tracks will be always be played by a good Dj..... there is the challenge

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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Mattias »

3/4 I like a lot also 5/4. I've yet to find a good way of using 9/8 9/4 19/16 in Techno but I love that as a fusion jazz fanboy.
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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Hades »

btw, if you want to have a listen to some proper polyrhythmic techno...
I just finished a long car drive to my repair guy and back, and I put in EQD's Equalized album. (shed)
So simple and minimal in it's choice of sounds, yet so effective and groovy as fuck...

I forgot how great that album is (and the series of EP's it's taken from)
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Re: Cross-rhythmsPolyrhythms and Polymeters. Lets talk about

Post by Root »

I'd say it's not too hard to beatmatch polyrhythm stuff compared to no polyrhythm. It's about focusing on straight 4/4 elements like offbeat hihats or whatever. Better don't beatmatch on the kick, as the sub in a club won't let you match accurate. I've had way harder times beatmatching records that have some crazy swing or no accrate timing in some elements. But even this is possible, if you know your tracks and combine them well. Don't know, but maybe it's even easier to beatmach this by ear and not by laptop, but i don't know traktor well. For example this one:

youtu.be/XOA3gsPDLSY
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