Let's talk analog summing.

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rktic
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Let's talk analog summing.

Post by rktic »

I recently had the idea of getting a dedicated analog summing device, maybe a basic mixer to do the job. Mostly i'm not really fond about Ableton's or any other audio engine's summing and the virtual solutions seem to be limiting the way i work with subgroups etc a bit.

Then again i'd have to get a new audio interface with at least 16 outs to get going and i'm not 100% sure if it'd really get me any further soundwise.

Steve - your input?

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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Lost to the Void »

Well, I actually decided to go back to analog summing about. 4 years ago I think.
Since modern console emulations came in, I`m a big fan of Sonimus, I sold my old summing mixer, it wasn`t really proving to get me any better results, not once I started using ABX software to compare results.
Here`s a good article about the pro`s/cons, and typical subjective issues that get in the way.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun04/a ... 0604-5.htm
Subjectively you might find it helps you.
So really, if you wanna do it, do it, but there is no real benefit beyond asthetics and a change of working method.
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by rktic »

I checked out the plugin solutions as well but was under the impression that i couldn't really use them the "right" way since i'm dealing with subgroups all the time. Not sure how to implement those with Sonimus for example.

But they really do a good job according to your tests? Sounds good - maybe i'll switch to Waves NLS any time. IF i find out how to work with subgroups and busses in Ableton.

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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Lost to the Void »

Sonimus is easy, I use tons of subgroups in ableton, I couldn`t make what I make unless I did.
Any group gets a Buss plug, and master channel gets a buss plug.
Sounds pretty nice to me, clients never complain about mix work.

Ableton busses? Select the channels, Ctrl G and it groups em.
Or you can go to the channel I/O settings and send everything to a Buss or whatever.
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by rktic »

Yeah, i was just worried that it sort of breaks the logic to put a buss inside a buss and wondered if it still does what it ought to.

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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Lost to the Void »

I`ve never had any problems, I don`t really push the Satson bus plugs hard, but in summing terms they are extremely subtle anyway in their communication with each toehr. Just play around, but as the article above discusses, if the film industry runs fine on digital summing, when they run a gajillion channels........
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Mattias »

Really, today it's just all about what kind of sound character / sound solution you prefer mate.
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Lost to the Void »

I think I understand your position.
Once you get really good at mixing, the increments of improvement get smaller, and harder to make.
So you really start looking in to the details of your working.

I also got to the point where I thought summing might be an issue, and went down that (rather costly) road. In the end it turned out I simply needed to be more focused, and more precise with my mixing and placement (just be betterer innit).

This was just in my case, but I get where you are at. Your looking for those little rewarding nuggets of technical progress.
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by rktic »

Yep. Sometimes you've gotta get lost of things you've always done. In my case getting lost of even the often subtle dynamic processors on the master and starting to aim for -3db there, trying to balance anything in the track without much compression etc. Putting the energy back in the individual hits other than compressing shit together.

Often went this route cause it was less of a hassle to get a certain sound going, trading off dynamics. It really became an issue with the modular synth and its raw energy. That's what made me think about going for an analog summer in the end.

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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by vanderlooy »

always thought this video was interesting: http://www.puremix.net/video/dangerous- ... mming.html

received a summing mixer 2 days ago and my first experience is pretty nice

bought it because of:
- the possibility of inserting analog hardware in the analog domain, no extra DA > AD roundtrip
- gain management / headroom, basically it's easier to mix
- sound of the box

downside is that it can kill workflow, there is no instant recall of all the gear patched in

you don't need a summing mixer to produce awesome tracks but it's big fun

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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Zappa »

Another possible route/path you could consider (if you haven't already) is to do your summing on dedicated dsps as opposed to going all the way back out to analogue. There's a vast array of options on the dsp summing side of things in terms of dsp cards and interfaces and personally, from the ones I've tried I like the way it gives you an integrated digital mixing environment which in many cases is also completely separate from your host engine (Live, Cubase, Logic etc). You simply send your channels and/or buses out to your dsp mixing environment via ASIO, mix, sum and send a mix bus or whatever channels you like back into your host DAW.

These dsp mixing options almost always come bundled with superb plugins which also run on the dsps, so you get extra possibilities on the plugin side of things as well and it all runs pretty much independently from your CPU (unless a specific plugin uses your CPU/computer for delay or sample memory).

Anyway, there's loads of possibilities on this front, from the obvious Pro Tools, UAD, TC, Focusrite (etc etc) gear, through to some of the less obvious or even slightly older products in the dsp audio card/interface market.

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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Jef »

In a few weeks time i am going to pick up the allen & heath zed r16.
If you have hardware, want an analog eq and are a sucker for external effects like me but still want to integrate it in your daw this seems the right fit.
I love working with knobs, brings me more creativity instead of looking all time at the screen (already do that all day at work).

It is a initial investment, but seems better value for me than tons of plugins.
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Hades »

haven't worked with that mixer, but I gotta tell you I love working with my midas.
if you know you're gonna use it for your way of working, then trust me, you'll be using it constantly.
It'll soon become one of those pieces that you'd cry your heart out if it ever breaks down on you.
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by msl »

I'd love to try a high end summing mixer, Shadow Hills, Thermionic, etc. But don't have the funds... also from what I've read over the years from many people who tried you can get pretty much the same results just running your final mix through nice pre's, or at least thats what Bob Katz says...

I do have a Zed14 mixer and I enjoy using that a lot for recording, have all my gear hooked up to it, but don't bother summing with it, since I lack multi channel hi end conversion... would love to get one of the new Midas F series though...

Re Sonimus, I've been using it too for the last and half I like it a lot, it subtle, but defiantly helps.

Has anyone here had any experience with the Harrison Mixbus for techno?
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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by Senko »

Has there ever been a proper audio example of ITB summing vs. OTB summing? The same exact track, but one version was summed internally and the other through a mixer? Can't seem to find a techno example like this.

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Re: Let's talk analog summing.

Post by The_G »

Jef wrote:In a few weeks time i am going to pick up the allen & heath zed r16.
If you have hardware, want an analog eq and are a sucker for external effects like me but still want to integrate it in your daw this seems the right fit.
I love working with knobs, brings me more creativity instead of looking all time at the screen (already do that all day at work).

It is a initial investment, but seems better value for me than tons of plugins.
I'll be curious to hear what you think, as this is one of the mixers I'm looking at (in the medium-term).


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