Analyzing other people's Live Sets

[mjudge]

Hey dudes,

This is old news, but yesterday I stumbled across this link to some . artists' Live Sets:

http://cdn1.ableton.com/download/5e47f3 ... rtists.zip

These tunes might not be everyone's cup of tea but I had a blast going through them and checking out how folks put them together and listening to the raw clips they used -- the Heartthrob set especially. It's encouraging to hear how basic some of these clips sound, but daunting to hear how the effects take them to the next level.

I also downloaded this Machinedrum set and was surprised how impressive the album track sounds in comparison, even though this is the finished mix (I'm taking this to mean that mastering can work wonders in some cases):

http://www.machinedrum.net/sacred-frequ ... roject.zip

Anyway, I found it really inspiring so I thought I'd share.

[disparate]

I remember that . thing, I might revisit it soon now that I've got a couple more years production experience.

[Mslwte]

yeah i got that ableton . thing.. but i didnt get the machinedrum project, will take a look thanks !

[mjudge]

One thing I noticed in the Heartthrob set is they used the opto mode on the kick compressor and set the attack really short and the release pretty short too, plus a high ratio, plenty of soft knee. I'm trying to figure out why they made these decisions.

Like lots of people, I'm at a loss using compression on a kick. Some folks say to stay away from it (I read there's very little on recent Monolake albums, though they don't sound better to me, just different), but then in this set it seems like they got a good sound, still natural, using lots of it.

My problem is I don't have an ear for when I'd want to use compression on a kick, and then I'm not sure where to begin when I opt for it. The process lately has been just to experiment, first by turning attack and decay all the way down, then deciding whether I want to use a high ratio and just compress the peaks, or whether I want to use a low ratio and compress further into the tail of the kick. It's an arbitrary decision because while I know the two ways will sound different, I don't know exactly how so, and if either way will be better. So then I dial down the threshold (using cave man instincts) until it sounds loud and distorts but not so much that it starts to quiet down again. Then I increase the release time until enough distortion goes away and it's still loud, and then I dial up the attack so it stays loud as possible but not weird sounding.

Following the Heartthrob example, I discovered if I switch to opto mode, I can get even more distortion to go away while keeping things still very loud. Same with turning up the knee. With the opto compressor, I'm guessing this is because, as I read, the release characteristic is different.

I have no idea if that's how it was done in this example -- somehow I doubt it.

[comunion]

One thing I noticed in the Heartthrob set is they used the opto mode on the kick compressor and set the attack really short and the release pretty short too, plus a high ratio, plenty of soft knee. I'm trying to figure out why they made these decisions.

Like lots of people, I'm at a loss using compression on a kick. Some folks say to stay away from it (I read there's very little on recent Monolake albums, though they don't sound better to me, just different), but then in this set it seems like they got a good sound, still natural, using lots of it.

My problem is I don't have an ear for when I'd want to use compression on a kick, and then I'm not sure where to begin when I opt for it. The process lately has been just to experiment, first by turning attack and decay all the way down, then deciding whether I want to use a high ratio and just compress the peaks, or whether I want to use a low ratio and compress further into the tail of the kick. It's an arbitrary decision because while I know the two ways will sound different, I don't know exactly how so, and if either way will be better. So then I dial down the threshold (using cave man instincts) until it sounds loud and distorts but not so much that it starts to quiet down again. Then I increase the release time until enough distortion goes away and it's still loud, and then I dial up the attack so it stays loud as possible but not weird sounding.

Following the Heartthrob example, I discovered if I switch to opto mode, I can get even more distortion to go away while keeping things still very loud. Same with turning up the knee. With the opto compressor, I'm guessing this is because, as I read, the release characteristic is different.

I have no idea if that's how it was done in this example -- somehow I doubt it.

beware of the settings they use, because they (the . guys, in this sets) often only use the default setting that brings the program. the presets.
about the compression, my teachers in sound school taught me to face it as follows:
- First, start with a long attack, a short release, and a low threshold (that attenuate -18 dB of gain reduction (GN), more or less)
- Then, shorten the attack time until you hear the compressor start biting the transients of the sound, usually when it starts to distort. after, increase the release trying not to accidentally compress the next stroke.
once you have setting the attack and release, upload the threshold until you have between -3 and -6 dB of GN.
about the release,you can set it in sync with the BPM of the track by the following formula: 60,000 divided by the current BPM. which will result in a quarter (1/4) expressed in milliseconds. so, if you need bigger figures, multiply the result by 2, 4, 8 and so and, if need smaller figures (eighth notes, sixteenth notes, etc..) you divide by 2, 4, etc.

Also, I have a table (which is very relative) of compressor settings:

kickdrum / bassdrum:
ratio: between 3:1-5:1.
- Attack time: 5-20 ms (also can be longer, 50 ms., for example)
-Release time: around 200 ms.

snare:
ratio: 3 and 4:1
- Attack: 5-10 ms.
- Release: 150 ms.

hi-hats:
- Ratio: 3:1
- A: less than 10 ms.
- A: around 100 ms.

toms:
- Ratio: 3 and 4:1
- A: 5-10 ms.
- R: 150 ms.

bass:
- Ratio: 3 to 5:1
- A: 4-20 ms.
- R: 200 ms.

as I said this is very relative, this is a basic point where you can start setting the compressor, but always trust your ears, because it always depends on the sound you are processing.

and.. this is the setting for real drum, but it helps

[mjudge]

Thanks comunion, really appreciate it. Any thoughts about when you might use other compressor options (opto, rms, feedback compression)? I know this is a very common topic but I feel like I might be on the verge of getting it finally.

[comunion]

i don´t know exactly, but i think i read something in the ableton´s manual.
feedback mode is an analog compressor emulate mode i think.
rms, i don´t get it. because in some compressor hardware is an auto-release (or that ´s what my teacher told me when i asked) but i don´t no really. anyway use the peak mode, i sthe common.
and opto, no idea.

[disparate]

Like lots of people, I'm at a loss using compression on a kick. Some folks say to stay away from it (I read there's very little on recent Monolake albums, though they don't sound better to me, just different), but then in this set it seems like they got a good sound, still natural, using lots of it.

My problem is I don't have an ear for when I'd want to use compression on a kick, and then I'm not sure where to begin when I opt for it.

I've generally not used it on kicks for most of the time I've been producing but I've messed about a few times lately.

So far I'm finding that it's handy if you want a bit more punch and clarity in the mix, as opposed to actually making it bigger or bassier or anything. Medium ratio and threshold then "tuning" the attack and release sculpts it between being boomy (long attack, short release) and clicky (short attack, long release) - all about striking the right balance between giving it more of a transient (which comes from the compressor kicking in after the attack phase thereby lowering the subsequent level and exaggerating the click) but keeping enough body in the kick so it's still strong enough. It's useful if you have, say, a dull, bassy kick that you want to stick out in the mix a bit more, especially if it can afford to lose a bit of its tail. Just remember that all the settings are interdependent - if you get your settings all dialled in then decide you want to, say, tweak the attack you might end up having to change other settings too.

Hope that makes sense, it's just my fairly recent experience. Once you get the hang of that stuff then it's worth experimenting with the different compressor models and settings as they do all work differently (for example, try switching between FF1 and FF2 in Ableton and noticing how different the curves of the attack and release are), I'm just starting to explore that now really.

[Patriek]

Great topic guys. Some nice info!

I myself also struggle with compression on kicks. Started to use it again as of lately. But somehow i always feel like i am fooling myself when i use compression on my kicks. Perhaps i am using it in the wrong way.

I also read a lot of crap about compression on kicks is not done. I am not sure what to believe anymore. But i do know that my kicks are never sounding as i what them to sound. Frustrated!! Haha i just try to use my caveman instinct (loved that one mjudge )

[Esh]

maybe this is a good topic to ask this question.

Im completely new to Live performance as in I want to do much more than just mixing clips and loops on ableton. I want to incorporate live synths/texture making, live drum programming, and some other bits and pieces with other people. But as a general wondering, how do you go about mastering a live performance or giving it that polish that production requires post-mixdown?

I have a fairly moderate understanding of mastering and the fact that it's a very dynamic and subjective process. So how do you polish a mix that WILL definitely always change.

do you use transparent/soft mastering?
Do you make sure all the individiual elements are mastered and up to scratch so you don't need to master the master bus at all?
do you just use a bus compressor?

or any other suggestions?

-update- and by new i mean i started last night

[mjudge]

Like lots of people, I'm at a loss using compression on a kick. Some folks say to stay away from it (I read there's very little on recent Monolake albums, though they don't sound better to me, just different), but then in this set it seems like they got a good sound, still natural, using lots of it.

My problem is I don't have an ear for when I'd want to use compression on a kick, and then I'm not sure where to begin when I opt for it.

I've generally not used it on kicks for most of the time I've been producing but I've messed about a few times lately.

So far I'm finding that it's handy if you want a bit more punch and clarity in the mix, as opposed to actually making it bigger or bassier or anything. Medium ratio and threshold then "tuning" the attack and release sculpts it between being boomy (long attack, short release) and clicky (short attack, long release) - all about striking the right balance between giving it more of a transient (which comes from the compressor kicking in after the attack phase thereby lowering the subsequent level and exaggerating the click) but keeping enough body in the kick so it's still strong enough. It's useful if you have, say, a dull, bassy kick that you want to stick out in the mix a bit more, especially if it can afford to lose a bit of its tail. Just remember that all the settings are interdependent - if you get your settings all dialled in then decide you want to, say, tweak the attack you might end up having to change other settings too.

Hope that makes sense, it's just my fairly recent experience. Once you get the hang of that stuff then it's worth experimenting with the different compressor models and settings as they do all work differently (for example, try switching between FF1 and FF2 in Ableton and noticing how different the curves of the attack and release are), I'm just starting to explore that now really.

Thanks a lot Disparate, this is helpful. I'm assuming that you make this decision to compress when you know you've got basic kick sound you like and you just want to tweak it a little bit, right? Because if you want a kick that's radically more clicky or one that's more boomy than what you've got, you'd be better off starting with a different sample/sound. In other words, you don't use the compressor to turn the wrong sound into the right one; you use it to make the right one even better.

Guess I need to get better at differentiating good from better then!

[ARiFF]

[quote="mjudge"]In other words, you don't use the compressor to turn the wrong sound into the right one; you use it to make the right one even better.[quote]

couldn't have said it better to be honest. If you find yourself having to fiddle too much to sculpt something in place, imo you're usually better off finding or creating a better sample to start from.

I've struggled with the same questions before though, compress it ?, dont compress it ?, and so on... I've been trying to analyse it from a scientific kind of way or using maths, but in the end its all about your ears, and how you perceive the sound. Maybe you intended the kick to be a little less dominating than usual, or you specifically intended to make it kick in hard. It's all about perception, and when you feel it sounds and sits right in the mix, it usually just is. Not saying that every setting is okay offcourse, but when you feel and hear it like you want it to be, it more than often is too.

[Críoch]

Good advice from disparate there. Well articulated. I love reading shit on forums cos its the only time i get to have any kind of conversation about this stuff. Its hard explaining what you do sometimes because you dont often talk about it. I probably last said the word compressor aloud about 2years ago haha. Anyway, well said. I use compression that way too.

[ste]

hope you are talking about compression of drummachine kicks or similiar sources. cause most of the samplepack-kicks used today are already that much compressed that an additional transient taming (even if moderate) often results in the absolute lack of punch and the end of a kick in the mix.

when i use kick samples as a starting point i tend to sculpt it with verb/eq/distortion no compression at all.

if working with drummachines like dumazon or the likes then it can make sense to compress off course