Everything in it's place. Sub, Kicks and Bass

[helloitsmeagain]

Hi all

I understand that the root of the bass needs to be in the same key as the kick, else it's like chlamydia down below.

Now imagine a wonderland where each element is in it's own space on the spectrum and i don't have to duck the bass.

OK, so to do this, I can't use a subby kick cause, lets for example, say my sub sits in 50Khz. My kick has to have it's fundamental at 100Khz. I'm assuming here it's as important that your sub and kick are in the same key as it is that your bass and kick are...

anyway, moving on...

now i want to introduce my bass. as the sub and kick are in A, so too must by bass be. but where is there for my bass to sit? i can't have the damn thing sitting at 200Khz... assuming i've said an emphatic no to ducking... wtf?

seems to me the only ways round this are:

option A; use a subby kick (fundamental at 50Khz) and have no sub bass,
option B: or sub only where there is no kick (both fundamentals at 50Khz) ,
option C: or duck the sub (both fundamentals at 50Khz).

of course in all these options we can assume my bass has it's root at 100Khz or (heaven fuckin' forbid) it's also rooted at 50Khz and duckin like a twat.

my question: is there an option D that i'm currently clueless about?

[estevan939]

Having elements in the same key is practical, but I hope you don't mean same pitch. If you did that, then the frequencies would clash and one sound will mask the other. This is all really subjective and depends on what type of sound you're going for though.
In your case, let the subby kick be just that. IMO there's no need for another sub bass. If you really want it in though, then leave your sub kick and cut your bass up to 80-100hz while playing a 5th or so above.

[helloitsmeagain]

yup, as i said, the same key. the same pitch is exactly what i'm trying to avoid, while keeping the same key.

Yeah, i can do the sub in the kick, but then it's only there for a every count and between the kicks there's no sub heaviness...

[bram2000]

Nice topic.

It's something I often think about too, and if you want your sub to be fat and audible then you need it to be say in the approx range 45Hz - 60Hz (at least on my monitors) which only leaves you with a few musical tones (say F1 to B1) to deal with. You then need bass/kick etc. to be a strong relationship within the relevant key, which usually means you end up using a 5th above that. It doesn't seem like there are too many options...

[Críoch]

Renato - Will you link back to that original Vid again Mate?

Was it in this thread? or another? haha. I meant to bookmark it to watch later

[Lost to the Void]

IT`s all about instrument/sound choice as EQ.
It`s a philosophy I apply to everything in production.
Pick the rights sounds that already fit together somewhat and you have already done half your EQ work. It is how a recording engineer works.

When you want a subby kick and sub bass, there is no real avoiding some ducking. If you are compressing properly then you can set up the ducking in a way that is just not noticeable, just by combining good EQ along with the sidechaining.. That`s about as technical as I can get really as it is all to do with listening and knowing. But you can use ducking to clean up the low end and have it unnoticeable.

A simple start is to find the main meat of the kick drum, and pull these frequencies out of the bass, slightly. That way the ducking has less work to do.

I`ve been making bass heavy music for a long time and ducking is never a noticeable artefact unless I want it to be.

[helloitsmeagain]

Renato - Will you link back to that original Vid again Mate?

What vid man?

[bram2000]

Think he means the Distance Sub Bass one...

youtu.be/-fFVCpumgX8

[Críoch]

Sorry if it wasnt in this thread.. though Renato edited it out?? haha

[helloitsmeagain]

Sorry if it wasnt in this thread.. though Renato edited it out?? haha

yeah, i'm gonna start posting really interesting stuff then go back and edit it so it looks like you being talking about Bumload for pages and pages...

[Críoch]

You could. You should haha

[rein]

you can also tweak a synth so it works as kick, subbass and bass at the same time. especially when you layer it up with some nice kick samples (or synthesize something yourself) and maybe some little fx here and there it will go totally unnoticed. clever modulation can work wonders...

[Críoch]

I forgot to reply to this Reinier. Thats fighting talk man

You have to explain a little bit more about this. Please. I've gone pure feral cos my imagination has ran so wild thinking about this. haha

[skimpi]

I was reading this and had to join to reply. I dont understand that if you have sub bass content within your kick, why you would want sub bass content in a bassline occuring at the same time as the kick. Thats just the same as if someone decided to have two sub basslines at once in their track, it just wouldnt work. You then say that you wont have any sub content in between the kicks, and that you have to wait for each beat to get some sub, well why cant you have a sub bassline inbetween the kicks. Or if that is to hard to do, or doesnt really flow with the track, then whats the problem with having a sub bassline that ducks out when the kick hits? You make sidechaining sound like some horrible thing that you wish to have nothing to do with haha.

[disparate]

I don't often need ducking right from the start, I try to avoid it through sensible composition... that said, I'll often put a very subtle sidechain on the bass at the end, it does seem to help tidy up and add a bit of groove. From reading music forums and so on it does seem almost a given these days that one sidechains their bass, when in reality it's just another tool in the arsenal.

Some genres/styles of bass do definitely depend on it, like your classic electro-house "filthy" bass, just depends on the tune really.

[helloitsmeagain]

why you would want sub bass content in a bassline occuring at the same time as the kick.

I don't, never said i did. actually i was trying to discover ways there are to avoid that, besides the obvious. but glad to see you got motivated to join.

[skimpi]

why you would want sub bass content in a bassline occuring at the same time as the kick.

I don't, never said i did. actually i was trying to discover ways there are to avoid that, besides the obvious. but glad to see you got motivated to join.

I see, well I think the only two ways to avoid it, is to duck out the bass when the kick hits, or just arrange the track so that there is no sub bass when the kick hits, I dont think there are any other ways, except maybe setting an EQ with the freq of you kick, and putting it on the bass and sidechaining that, so instead of the sound getting compressed out the way, it just gets those frequencies EQ'd out of the way, but only when the kick hits.

[rein]

I forgot to reply to this Reinier. Thats fighting talk man

You have to explain a little bit more about this. Please. I've gone pure feral cos my imagination has ran so wild thinking about this. haha

Think pitch modulation for kick (duh), then a LFO that kicks in after the pitch modulation stopped, that's your bassline, and some upper harmonics (second osc or something) that have a volume LFO with another rate or something.

Put a highpassed sample above it, play with a bit of compression and voila...

Some synths are very good at this kind of stuff. A SH101 with a lot of portamento, some patience and an extern filter can give beautiful results. I like this way of working because it somehow gives you a very coherent sound.

[Patriek]

I am going to kidnap Reinier this saturday. Lock him in my studio so he can become my ghost producer!
Thanks for explaining sir

[Críoch]

Only seen this now Reinier. Cool - will definitely be checking that out. Sounds logical.

Thanks a lot for explaining it