How much should I be taking from listening to a mix at low volumes on headphones?

[Plyphon]

Heya,

Bit of a strange question but I'll try to articulate it.

I often will turn down the master to have a listen to a mix or individual track at low volume to see what frequencies stand out etc. using my production cans. Can be handy to identify when your hats or claps/percs/etc are mixed too loud.

But I also notice a lot of elements sonic profile will change - kicks for example tend to become more 'poppy' and lose their weight, midranges can become boxy, and so on.

Sometimes I will EQ out these frequencies if it doesn't impact the mix at regular volume, but sometimes that doesn't work and it takes away some weight or balance from the kick and overall mix.

How much should I be indexing towards this? Should I lean more on the mix at regular listening volume? Or is this a symptom of something else that is only revealed by my headphones at lower volumes?

Cheers!

[2latuile]

Beside loudspeakers (whether full blown monitors or headphone's ones) never reacting exactly the same way at different volumes, this is, mainly and by far, the effect of the Fletcher Munson curve - that is, our ears having a loudness-dependant frequency response curve. The "right" EQ / balance is bound to be something of a compromise, so you have to accept it won't necessarily sound JustRight(tm) at all levels and choose which "target loudness" is the most important for your audience.

My 2 cents...

[Lost to the Void]

Heya,

Bit of a strange question but I'll try to articulate it.

I often will turn down the master to have a listen to a mix or individual track at low volume to see what frequencies stand out etc. using my production cans. Can be handy to identify when your hats or claps/percs/etc are mixed too loud.

But I also notice a lot of elements sonic profile will change - kicks for example tend to become more 'poppy' and lose their weight, midranges can become boxy, and so on.

Sometimes I will EQ out these frequencies if it doesn't impact the mix at regular volume, but sometimes that doesn't work and it takes away some weight or balance from the kick and overall mix.

How much should I be indexing towards this? Should I lean more on the mix at regular listening volume? Or is this a symptom of something else that is only revealed by my headphones at lower volumes?

Cheers!

There is a lot at play here.
Firstly how do your cans match up to your monitors.
Secondly are you using some kind of can opener software to give a phantom centre and deal with binaural issues.

I often, both in production and mastering, do a slow volume sweep on the mix from 0 to max comfort, back to zero. I do this to check mix consistency as you go through different levels. But that`s all, monitoring at low volume to check a mix is just adding too many variables for a true reference.

Always listen at the same SPL, to the same LUFS on the meters. NOTHING will train your ears better for good mixing AND mastering than a consistent monitoring standard.

[Plyphon]

Beside loudspeakers (whether full blown monitors or headphone's ones) never reacting exactly the same way at different volumes, this is, mainly and by far, the effect of the Fletcher Munson curve - that is, our ears having a loudness-dependant frequency response curve. The "right" EQ / balance is bound to be something of a compromise, so you have to accept it won't necessarily sound JustRight(tm) at all levels and choose which "target loudness" is the most important for your audience.

My 2 cents...

Oh thats interesting and that could explain what i'm hearing - i hadnt considered that, thanks.

I think that 'target loudness' idea is a good way to approach it.

[Plyphon]

The OP

There is a lot at play here.
Firstly how do your cans match up to your monitors.
Secondly are you using some kind of can opener software to give a phantom centre and deal with binaural issues.

I often, both in production and mastering, do a slow volume sweep on the mix from 0 to max comfort, back to zero. I do this to check mix consistency as you go through different levels. But that`s all, monitoring at low volume to check a mix is just adding too many variables for a true reference.

Always listen at the same SPL, to the same LUFS on the meters. NOTHING will train your ears better for good mixing AND mastering than a consistent monitoring standard.

Hey Void,

Thanks - I'd say I'm being nowhere near this clinical about it my monitors are crammed into a corner in possibly the worst listening arrangement possible. I mainly use headphones as I live in a small apartment with my partner. Not using any kind of EQ or anything on the headphones, either.

Maybe I should bin off the low volume thing. Though it has helped me out a few times in the past to gain perspective.

[Amøbe]

How important is it that I understand what LUFS are?

[borg]

Try adding harmonics to your low frequency material to make them more prominent at lower volume/small speakers.

LUFS is the new RMS in my simpleton mind, and will become most important when mastering for the different new media of this era. I'll leave it to Void to either destroy this statement or come with a scientific explanation.

[illit_]

While I don't use this method exactly, this video from Dan Worrall explains what is happening pretty well. It's certainly something to bear in mind. https://youtu.be/wgogJmeQFvY

I picked up Steves tip about listening at the same volume maybe a year or so ago. I think it has helped enourmously. I have a meter that runs outside of Ableton so when I am listening to tunes or mixes it's the same level that I produce at. I'm not to the decimal point anal about it but I've gotten a lot better at noticing wild frequncies and poppy transients
I recommend doing it!

[orchard]

Goodhertz CanOpener is going on sale in a couple of days.
Think I’ll be getting it as I mainly use headphones and recently, checking at a friends, my stereo field was shit. Sounded wide in the headphones but on speakers barely any width.
https://goodhertz.com/canopener-studio/?mode=dark

[Lost to the Void]

Goodhertz CanOpener is going on sale in a couple of days.
Think I’ll be getting it as I mainly use headphones and recently, checking at a friends, my stereo field was shit. Sounded wide in the headphones but on speakers barely any width.
https://goodhertz.com/canopener-studio/?mode=dark

I don`t recommend canopener.
I was using it for ages and found a consistent issue from tunes made with canopener and when I went into the mastering room.
It fucks with transients in a weird way. It`s a little too clever and algorithmic. It misrepresents transients, you end up pushing punch much harder than necessary in the mix.

Once I identified the issue was canopener I dumped it. Been using Blue Cat Re-Head. it`s cleaner, simpler, and less is getting in the way of the audio.

[orchard]

Goodhertz CanOpener is going on sale in a couple of days.
Think I’ll be getting it as I mainly use headphones and recently, checking at a friends, my stereo field was shit. Sounded wide in the headphones but on speakers barely any width.
https://goodhertz.com/canopener-studio/?mode=dark

I don`t recommend canopener.
I was using it for ages and found a consistent issue from tunes made with canopener and when I went into the mastering room.
It fucks with transients in a weird way. It`s a little too clever and algorithmic. It misrepresents transients, you end up pushing punch much harder than necessary in the mix.

Once I identified the issue was canopener I dumped it. Been using Blue Cat Re-Head. it`s cleaner, simpler, and less is getting in the way of the audio.

Ah, thanks for that. I’ll check out Re-head. Cheers.

[Plyphon]

While I don't use this method exactly, this video from Dan Worrall explains what is happening pretty well. It's certainly something to bear in mind. https://youtu.be/wgogJmeQFvY

I picked up Steves tip about listening at the same volume maybe a year or so ago. I think it has helped enourmously. I have a meter that runs outside of Ableton so when I am listening to tunes or mixes it's the same level that I produce at. I'm not to the decimal point anal about it but I've gotten a lot better at noticing wild frequncies and poppy transients
I recommend doing it!

Ah wow, this is super interesting - thank you. Learnt a lot there. I will no longer pay so much attention at low volumes!

[between stars]

Not sure about headphones specifically, but I find monitoring at low levels to be very helpful. However, as noted, it’s also critical that you have a reference level. You can (imo) do both if you use specific master level presets - one at your ‘normal’ calibrated level, and another 12dB down or whatever. Genelec’s GLM offers presets for this, but you can duplicate it easily in any DAW. Just make sure you always use the same, repeatable settings . Don’t just randomly set it to some arbitrary low level that’s different every time.