Saturation/distortion 2021

[Lost to the Void]

I suppose it`s worth reiterating that the terms saturation and distortion are now far removed from the original terminology.
All saturation is distortion, but when the saturation is pushed hard enough the harmonic additions will then clip and intermodulation becomes more obvious and then becomes distortion.

There was an interesting discussion about this in the latest Mastering Show on the production advice.com channel.

Generally saturation is almost imperceptible in distortion terms, and distortion is easily perceptible, in distortion terms.
And realistically ANY change of the original signal is distortion.

So, distortion distortion distortion distortion = distortion + distortion/distortion

[asm]

I like both, obviously. I wouldnt have built my murder box and slaughter machine fx units were it not for my distortion obsession.

Tried searching the forum for these boxes you mention, which brought up some interesting old threads. There really is a lot of brilliant ideas on here if you dig for a bit! Like, I had totally forgotten about "no input mixing board" techniques. Thanks.

I`ve actually massively modified my Slaughter Machine box now.
I added a separate daughter board that introduces a whole lot more unpredictability.
It exploits the weaknesses of certain components, and there is a lot more play with voltage starving fighting with unloading capacitors.
You get this weird strangling of the sound which "bursts" through when you hit a threshold. So you can go from a really broken up fuzz overtone sound to a really full and broad big distortion dynamically.
I might make a few more next year and sell them.
I don`t fully understand what is happening, but they work.

That sounds really interesting. I love the electronics behind distortion etc. the custom pedal stuff is great

[Val Endrada]

I suppose it`s worth reiterating that the terms saturation and distortion are now far removed from the original terminology.
All saturation is distortion, but when the saturation is pushed hard enough the harmonic additions will then clip and intermodulation becomes more obvious and then becomes distortion.

There was an interesting discussion about this in the latest Mastering Show on the production advice.com channel.

Generally saturation is almost imperceptible in distortion terms, and distortion is easily perceptible, in distortion terms.
And realistically ANY change of the original signal is distortion.

So, distortion distortion distortion distortion = distortion + distortion/distortion

Yeah, that sounds about right:)

We might add compression to the list:

Subtle compression = compression

Compressed to within and inch of its life = distortion

PS: "I don't fully understand what is happening, but they work" is a great slogan for extreme hand-built effects

[td3l]

I've been 500-curious lately and have had eye on the Neve 542 units in particular. They use the same electronics as an actual tape head in the saturation stage. Pricey, but very tempting.

youtu.be/o4zDB9FFdVw

[Lost to the Void]

I've been 500-curious lately and have had eye on the Neve 542 units in particular. They use the same electronics as an actual tape head in the saturation stage. Pricey, but very tempting.

youtu.be/o4zDB9FFdVw

I remain unconvinced with these things, and I think they are falsely advertised. Empirical Labs did it first (and better) with the FATSO. But the thing is, these things are a fake out in many ways.
You get the transformer stage and tape head emulation, but the transformer is nowhere near heft of a tape machine, and of course there is no actual tape, which is integral to the sound, so you don't get the effervescence that comes with the randomness of tape.. Then the other stuff like softened rolled top end they achieve with filters.
What you really get is a very expensive form of soft saturation but not not tape saturation (nor tape compression).
It's subterfuge, I wouldn't do it, I sent the FATSO back and stuck with real to reel. You are actually better off with digital reel to reel emulation as they at least emulate the tape aspect too and not just the head.

[td3l]

I've been 500-curious lately and have had eye on the Neve 542 units in particular. They use the same electronics as an actual tape head in the saturation stage. Pricey, but very tempting.

youtu.be/o4zDB9FFdVw

I remain unconvinced with these things, and I think they are falsely advertised. Empirical Labs did it first (and better) with the FATSO. But the thing is, these things are a fake out in many ways.
You get the transformer stage and tape head emulation, but the transformer is nowhere near heft of a tape machine, and of course there is no actual tape, which is integral to the sound, so you don't get the effervescence that comes with the randomness of tape.. Then the other stuff like softened rolled top end they achieve with filters.
What you really get is a very expensive form of soft saturation but not not tape saturation (nor tape compression).
It's subterfuge, I wouldn't do it, I sent the FATSO back and stuck with real to reel. You are actually better off with digital reel to reel emulation as they at least emulate the tape aspect too and not just the head.

Thanks for the info, I see your points. I do still like the idea of these things (having tape-like saturation at hand without the noise floor and soft warbling is sometimes desirable) but wish there were some more comprehensive demos of them.

[Lost to the Void]

I've been 500-curious lately and have had eye on the Neve 542 units in particular. They use the same electronics as an actual tape head in the saturation stage. Pricey, but very tempting.

youtu.be/o4zDB9FFdVw

I remain unconvinced with these things, and I think they are falsely advertised. Empirical Labs did it first (and better) with the FATSO. But the thing is, these things are a fake out in many ways.
You get the transformer stage and tape head emulation, but the transformer is nowhere near heft of a tape machine, and of course there is no actual tape, which is integral to the sound, so you don't get the effervescence that comes with the randomness of tape.. Then the other stuff like softened rolled top end they achieve with filters.
What you really get is a very expensive form of soft saturation but not not tape saturation (nor tape compression).
It's subterfuge, I wouldn't do it, I sent the FATSO back and stuck with real to reel. You are actually better off with digital reel to reel emulation as they at least emulate the tape aspect too and not just the head.

Thanks for the info, I see your points. I do still like the idea of these things (having tape-like saturation at hand without the noise floor and soft warbling is sometimes desirable) but wish there were some more comprehensive demos of them.

You can get just a good sound as these things with an Elektron Analog Heat on clean boost or sat, it will also roll off with analog filters and EQ.
It`s also much easier to integrate into your system. Plus it`s stereo and less than half the price, and does other things as well.

[td3l]

I remain unconvinced with these things, and I think they are falsely advertised. Empirical Labs did it first (and better) with the FATSO. But the thing is, these things are a fake out in many ways.
You get the transformer stage and tape head emulation, but the transformer is nowhere near heft of a tape machine, and of course there is no actual tape, which is integral to the sound, so you don't get the effervescence that comes with the randomness of tape.. Then the other stuff like softened rolled top end they achieve with filters.
What you really get is a very expensive form of soft saturation but not not tape saturation (nor tape compression).
It's subterfuge, I wouldn't do it, I sent the FATSO back and stuck with real to reel. You are actually better off with digital reel to reel emulation as they at least emulate the tape aspect too and not just the head.

Thanks for the info, I see your points. I do still like the idea of these things (having tape-like saturation at hand without the noise floor and soft warbling is sometimes desirable) but wish there were some more comprehensive demos of them.

You can get just a good sound as these things with an Elektron Analog Heat on clean boost or sat, it will also roll off with analog filters and EQ.
It`s also much easier to integrate into your system. Plus it`s stereo and less than half the price, and does other things as well.

Legit. My Acidbox 3 also gets pretty far in that direction (albeit without the same degree of control as the Heat)

[mervv]

Only because it`s not saturation, it`s clipping/distortion, and even then, only when it is mackies.
There`s nowt wrong with pushing an old Stratos or TC valve desk.

I think we have the same mixer, the soundcraft signature 12 mtk. Do you ever drive/clip its inputs?

I like how it sounds on drums sometimes. Also occasionally sounds good on a synth.

[ozias_leduc]

I have the mtk22 and the bleed when you drive the preamps! My god

I still do it tho

[Lost to the Void]

Only because it`s not saturation, it`s clipping/distortion, and even then, only when it is mackies.
There`s nowt wrong with pushing an old Stratos or TC valve desk.

I think we have the same mixer, the soundcraft signature 12 mtk. Do you ever drive/clip its inputs?

I like how it sounds on drums sometimes. Also occasionally sounds good on a synth.

I don't think I've ever driven the channels.
I have so many fx and stomp boxes, when I want drive I run stuff through a box. It never occurred to me to drive the channels actually, I'm a bit of a gain structure nazi, even though I use some horrendous distortion units.

[michi]

For me:
Neve 542
Overstayer nt-02a
Looptrotter SA2RATE2

[Ben Kohonays]

I ordered one of those EHX Overlord pedals. Hummed and ha'd a bit about whether to go mono or stereo, figured I didn't really need the stereo so ordered the Overlord Nano. Well, those pictures can be deceiving - the knobs are so close together it's a PITA trying to turn them, and I have small hands. So it's going back.

[frico]

I borrowed one of those Neve tape emulators from a friend for a few weeks a year or so ago; I found what it did to be VERY subtle and not worth the money for me. I could get a slight smoothening sort of effect from it but it didn't like being pushed hard into cool, blown-out territory. I recently built a couple of the Sound Skulptor TS500 tape sim modules https://www.soundskulptor.com/en/prodde ... prod=TS500, which to me are a lot better for obvious saturation. Not sure how convincingly tape-y they are but they do thicken things up well.

I remain unconvinced with these things, and I think they are falsely advertised. Empirical Labs did it first (and better) with the FATSO. But the thing is, these things are a fake out in many ways.
You get the transformer stage and tape head emulation, but the transformer is nowhere near heft of a tape machine, and of course there is no actual tape, which is integral to the sound, so you don't get the effervescence that comes with the randomness of tape.. Then the other stuff like softened rolled top end they achieve with filters.
What you really get is a very expensive form of soft saturation but not not tape saturation (nor tape compression).
It's subterfuge, I wouldn't do it, I sent the FATSO back and stuck with real to reel. You are actually better off with digital reel to reel emulation as they at least emulate the tape aspect too and not just the head.

Thanks for the info, I see your points. I do still like the idea of these things (having tape-like saturation at hand without the noise floor and soft warbling is sometimes desirable) but wish there were some more comprehensive demos of them.

You can get just a good sound as these things with an Elektron Analog Heat on clean boost or sat, it will also roll off with analog filters and EQ.
It`s also much easier to integrate into your system. Plus it`s stereo and less than half the price, and does other things as well.

[Lost to the Void]

I borrowed one of those Neve tape emulators from a friend for a few weeks a year or so ago; I found what it did to be VERY subtle and not worth the money for me. I could get a slight smoothening sort of effect from it but it didn't like being pushed hard into cool, blown-out territory. I recently built a couple of the Sound Skulptor TS500 tape sim modules https://www.soundskulptor.com/en/prodde ... prod=TS500, which to me are a lot better for obvious saturation. Not sure how convincingly tape-y they are but they do thicken things up well.

Thanks for the info, I see your points. I do still like the idea of these things (having tape-like saturation at hand without the noise floor and soft warbling is sometimes desirable) but wish there were some more comprehensive demos of them.

You can get just a good sound as these things with an Elektron Analog Heat on clean boost or sat, it will also roll off with analog filters and EQ.
It`s also much easier to integrate into your system. Plus it`s stereo and less than half the price, and does other things as well.

That`s the thing, so many people get these tape emulations, virtual or real, and have never worked with reel to reel, so people tend to expect this really obvious distortion, rather than the extremely subtle saturation you get. Even when you push tape real hard (on a good machine) it takes a absolute ton of drive to get it to break up.
This is where the Satin Uhe emulation is very accurate, reel to reel doesn`t distort easily, you get increasing saturation, more and more harmonics, and slowly reduced dynamic range, until you finally push the edge, and then it breaks, but once you get a tape machine to actually break up/burst through, it generally doesn`t sound too good as the dynamics have gone at that point.

[2latuile]

Well saturation is considered traditionally to be something where harmonics are added, either odd or even, via tubes, so it is additive distortion.

And distortion, traditionally, is clipping germanium or silicon transistors. So it is subtractive distortion.

"Tube saturation" also comes from clipping - it's the clipping that produces the extra harmonics in both cases. What differs is mostly the clipping characteristics (soft progressive clipping for tubes, hard "brickwall" clipping for transistors). And the fact that when pushing a tube power amp (ie a guitar amp) you can get a bit of magnetic saturation (which is also technically clipping) from the output transformer too.

[Lost to the Void]

Well saturation is considered traditionally to be something where harmonics are added, either odd or even, via tubes, so it is additive distortion.

And distortion, traditionally, is clipping germanium or silicon transistors. So it is subtractive distortion.

"Tube saturation" also comes from clipping - it's the clipping that produces the extra harmonics in both cases. What differs is mostly the clipping characteristics (soft progressive clipping for tubes, hard "brickwall" clipping for transistors). And the fact that when pushing a tube power amp (ie a guitar amp) you can get a bit of magnetic saturation (which is also technically clipping) from the output transformer too.

Not exactly, the harmonics are a bleed in a addition to the clipping. Some call it soft clipping, the original term Overdrive is probably more accurate.
As the Cathode is saturated (hence the name saturation) with electrons, it heats up, the electrons then behave more randomly, the magnetic field then takes over and reorders the electrons and we get second order and even harmonics. Technically no clipping has taken place, the signal has been transformed, or divided even, the current hasn`t been dumped it has been used to ADD harmonics. Whereas with clipping, part of the signal is effectively just discarded.
It`s the same with magnetic tape, the signal is not discarded, it is reordered and you get added harmonics according to the magnetic field. That`s why it`s so hard to square wave clip tape.
It`s piffling over details, essentially saturation is additive, clipping is subtractive, that`s the simplest way to explain what is happening in helpful musical terms.

[2latuile]

Not exactly, the harmonics are a bleed in a addition to the clipping (...) As the Cathode is saturated (hence the name saturation) with electrons, it heats up, the electrons then behave more randomly, the magnetic field then takes over and reorders the electrons and we get second order and even harmonics.

Never considered that part of tubes behaviour, I'll have to research the topic...

It`s piffling over details,

I've always been interested in such kind of details so thanks for the pointer.

[Lost to the Void]

It`s all still distortion at the end of the day.

I think the best way to picture soft saturation is like wave folding, whereas hard clipping is like squaring off a wave.

Aaaaaanyway, in regards to tape, the actual tape is a part of the sound, having just a magnetic write and read head, which is how a lot of these hardware emulators work, is basically cutting out a vital part of the process, as you are just getting the pure magnetic field, whereas the tape itself adds all these other non linearities, and the gauss rating of the tape itself interacts with the field, and itself has a magnetic limit before it too, is saturated. So the waveform never gets clipped on tape, you just saturate it with information, effectively adding noise, that noise just happens to be influenced by a magnetic field, and so has some order to it (harmonics) that when vastly saturated (ie the harmonics have the same level of loudness as the original signal) becomes more like traditional distortion as you are effectively now generating (ordered) noise (like pink noise).

[td3l]

Anyone ever use, or have opinions on, the Elysia Karacter? One of the rack versions has popped up 2nd hand for a decent price -- not much more than a new analogue heat. I'm interested.