How to have less? Writing tracks w/ more space, and less instrumentation?

[Jean Luc Cougar]

I know this sounds like a stupid question, but somehow no matter how hard I try I have too many layers going on.

When I am in the middle of writing, I am always worried I am not changing things enough, but when I compare my tracks to others - my tracks somehow feel like they have too much going on while also being less interesting.
If I compare instrumentation - drums/percussion I tend to have the same number of elements. Melodic info is usually the same, or I maybe have 1 more element?

Should I automate less? Have less happening in the arrangement?

Anyone else struggle with this? Any tips?

Examples of the kinds of simple tracks I strive to match in terms of minimalism (ignore the style, here for arrangement examples)
Robert Hood - Ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBUSkmnIulg
Mark Broom - Stunned 97: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7aE9FoKRU
Slam - Vapor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYIQuWTgaI

[intrusav]

Relegate 3/4's of it to the background.
Keep these elements subtle as fuck, at barely registering levels. It will create a solid atmosphere to build on which adds interest.

The big challenge is to decide what your main elements are. They get the focus...

I've tried it out several times and I like the idea that there's a loop or two going on in the background that, if I was to turn it up, would add serious momentum to the track but only I know about it, haha! Hold...hold...hold... ..

[jordanneke]

Robert Hood! The absolute master (imo)!

That's like saying i'd like to run faster and posting a video of Usain Bolt.

But seriously, I'm a firm believer in minimalism. For me, I need to be able to listen to the kick, bass, pad/synth, percussion for a LONG TIME, without getting bored. If I can do that for 5 minutes with just those 4 tracks running, then I know I can progress. For me that means that the foundations are solid enough to continue with. Even better if you can just mute one of the tracks, then bring it back in and you totally feel the change.

Only now after many many years am I starting to add more tracks/noises, but just as ear-candy. Nothing central to the track at all.

[Mslwte]

It's all about the groove and syncopation that makes these tracks interesting. Certainly the first 2.

[Lag]

Sound porn too. This is why I'm so much against cheap hardware and vst sound. Techno is about capturing an emotion in a bottle, so for the emotion to shine through it's elements must make bold statements. Throw out everything that sounds like plastic, cause it feels cheap.

BTW I have the same feeling you do when I make music man. And I keep struggling with that. I make these elaborate arrangements and tons of elements, but ultimately I play loops in my sets. I think it's more a problem of a musicmaking mindset - are you creating a tool that someone will use in a set, or a song that should be listened to and enjoyed thoroughly when home-listening? Are you leaving for the DJ to use and abuse your track or are you saying everything the music needs to say yourself? Are you going for suspense and slow buildups, hypnotism or are you going for a chattery approach and hoping that every word counts and doesn't bore someone.

[Lost to the Void]

Well, if minimalism is your goal and you are not aiming for it because you think you have to...

The simplest things is to reduce everything down to basic elements.

There are a number of ways of looking at it.

I would break it down to 2 main methodologies (at least when talking about "standard" techno tropes..... I`m more interested in avoiding them)

Start with your percussion section, drums and bass, get them tight as a nut and as full and as punchy as you can BEFORE any other elements are added.
Then when you have done this see what elements can be fitted around and within the space left.
This is good for tool techno and groove based stuff.
Add elements one at a time, draw a mental picture (I think I have talked about this in terms of mix fundamentals) of the audio spectrum and picture each sound taking up space within this picture, approach your composition with "what space is there left?" rather than "what do I want to add next".

The other methodology is to find your "hook" first, get that hook taken to a point where it completely stands on it`s own.
Then fit the drums in to service this hook.
Then if there is any space left, decide if it needs to be filled.
This is more of a pop music mentality, but you see it in techno a lot as well.

"Space" is a spurious word in production. It`s not really about having literal "holes" in the mix where nothing is there, but more about how sounds relate in the audio spectrum in terms of their placement and ambience. That "space" will generally be taken up, even in the most minimal tune, by space defining elements such as reverb, good old noise if you follow current cliches, or delay or whatever.

If you only want a kickdrum and hit hat, then the kick and hat can have nice big reverbs, delays, parallel phase/chorus whatever, filling out that space/creating that sense of space.

[dubdub]

I'm always trying to strip down my tracks but I can't really do it, the tracks end up sounding ok but not that interesting. A LOT of amateuer producers go for minimalism but can't really pull it off. I'd rather have a slightly overdone track that's interesting rather than something boring and minimal. To me at least, it seems like for most people, you have to spend a lot time making 'maximal' tunes before you can go 'minimal'.

[Críoch]

Space.. The Final Frontier.

[speen]

https://www.residentadvisor.net/features/3365

this feature on Basic Channel is pretty good, and they are the masters of minimalism if you ask me

[Jean Luc Cougar]

Wow. I have to be honest, when I posted this, I kind of worried it was an unanswerable question because these sorts of things tend to lead to answers about feel, listen, practice, etc - the responses have actually been super helpful (and surprisingly tactical).

@Intrusav: That's a great tip, I have heard this in some tracks where you can't tell if it's another layer, the opening of the release, or some sort of wild modulation delay. Definitely going to try this.
@Jordanneke: Fair point on Hood / Bolt haha! Real talk though, I don't want to sound like Hood, but I want to learn from his restraint. I absolutely agree w/ your point on finding a loop you can hear for 5 min. Maybe I need to just do more sketches and trash 4 out of 5 sketches to only pick the strongest ones.
@Mslwte: Absolutely. What's interesting is how simple they are well still being interesting.
@Lag: If I am interpreting your comment correctly, you are saying that the sound design needs to be top notch? I think your point about "leaving room for the DJ to use and abuse is key". Also actively making a decision about suspense, or hypnotism, etc is a good one, I think I may have been trying to do all at once and failing at all.
@Lost to the Void: Wow. Thank you. Honestly, this is so direct, and so helpful and I think you identified the path forward. Similar to the above, I think I was kind of trying to do both and failing. Definitely appreciate the note about space for verbs and delays. Maybe this has been part of my problem too, too many musical elements, and then too much verb, delay, etc too.
@Dubdub: absolutely - I am trying to get out of this maximal phase.
@Crioch: Great scott Crioch!

In addition to this post, and having conversations with a few friends IRL, the other thing I did was do an in depth analysis of some of the tracks I referenced. I layed it all out in Ableton and noted every single instrument, when they came in and out, etc to get a sense of what people are doing, etc. I hadn't done this so in depth since I first started way back when, and it was really refreshing.

What I learned so far about most of the songs I like:
- They tend to have 10 or less elements
- Not all of them have the huge reverb-y kicks
- A lot less automation in the tracks than you hear in youtube videos (in terms of the number of things automated, and the amount - ie: filter sweeps aren't huge)
- Automation was mostly simple volume fades, a simple opening of the filter, or release and only on a few elements
- (So far) tracks have rarely had both claps and snares, or more than 2 cymbal/shaker type percussion elements - Ie: if there is an HHO and HH, there is rarely also a ride or if there is a clap, there is rarely a different snare pattern.
- The only white noise I have heard has been in Slam's tracks and used very sparingly

I am going to analyze a few more tracks to solidify what I am learning and try to impose some rules on myself (to maybe break later).

Thank you everyone who has commented so far, I am super appreciative.

[over9000]

thought about this problem times many times too!
totally agree on Hood beeing the master of this minimalistic/groovy/toolish sound.
and also totally agree with dub that it is very difficult to make some minimalistic groove work.
I tend to add much stuff too, but now iam at apoint where i can make the mixes work better that i used to. really amatuerish but still.

i think it depends on the mood also, sometimes i try to "make" something specific and that almost never works out (due to limited skills i guess)
but when iam open to do whatever, mostly nice stuff comes out. Maybe its the mastery of the art you get after years that you can just sit down and make a track that you already have in your head..

[Lag]

When working with reverb, delay etc have in mind the following factors:

It's both important when reverb starts as it is when it ends. Pre-delay can add an interesting rhythmical component, and often ending the reverb tail before the next sound comes in helps not suffocate the impact of the sound (for example reverb on 2/4 claps). I've used some pre-delay to add a bit of movement to the snare in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXhxHRDOwc

While we're on the topic of timing - try and play with non-synced delay. If you go hard on the de-sync it will add to the grove, if you go soft (only a few ms off the grid) it will be good ear candy.

There are also many small tricks that help keep the ear interested in this way:
-Autechre used to export the sound, pitch it down or up a bit, put 100% reverb on it and then mix it in with the unpitched, dry signal
-EQing of the reverb can be very important. Here's just one idea that I've found useful (it's a "vocal reverb" trick but it can be applied to so many things): https://youtu.be/X6L9oODAg6g
-the width and panning of effects can be very important. A panned delay can add depth to a sound, and a narrowed reverb can add definition to the space. Even though it's not techno, this is a great example of what I mean by narrowed reverb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbk7mGafDec
-diffusion can also play an important role. For example if I put a short echo on a 2-4 snare it can sound like a double-snare. If I crank the diffusion knob up it gets a different dimension, and usually ends up being an interesting play between narrow-wide sound (which, admittedly, doesn't really matter much in the club but makes for an enjoyable effect when listened to in a controlled environment).
-be careful of the chain order. If you put saturation before the reverb chances are the reverb and the sound reverberating will have different character. For example, if you apply saturation after the reverb their character will meld and it will sound more like they belong, but for some situations the reverb can lose all of it's natural sound. In that case I will usually use aux reverb and add a small amount of the same saturation on it, or use a high saturation drive but lower the wetness of the effect on the dry-wet bar.
-my favorite trick is putting volume and pan automation on the auxed reverb. I'll often put this effect on it: https://shop.propellerheads.com/rack-extension/pump/ and then adjust when the volume drops or peaks, what's the speed of the pump and what's the dry-wet ratio. It often adds very interesting movement to the static reverb that's more interesting than a simple phaser or flanger on it. Also Reason has an interesting LFO (this baby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDT-lHQv3pw) which has shuffle and phase controls so when I use it to LFO the panning of the reverb - it doesn't sound quantized, predictable and bland. I'll often oscillate the speed or the amount of the panning oscillator, using LFO2 to modulate LFO1. Also, I'll use both of these tricks (panning and volume automation) on rides and noise (for example on the noise here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9BJ7f1DHB0 at 1:43 and 3:05. Basically I'll use it on anything that is long and static and I'd rather it had life.

Hope any of this helps.

[Masari]

When working with reverb, delay etc have in mind the following factors:

It's both important when reverb starts as it is when it ends. Pre-delay can add an interesting rhythmical component, and often ending the reverb tail before the next sound comes in helps not suffocate the impact of the sound (for example reverb on 2/4 claps). I've used some pre-delay to add a bit of movement to the snare in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXhxHRDOwc

While we're on the topic of timing - try and play with non-synced delay. If you go hard on the de-sync it will add to the grove, if you go soft (only a few ms off the grid) it will be good ear candy.

There are also many small tricks that help keep the ear interested in this way:
-Autechre used to export the sound, pitch it down or up a bit, put 100% reverb on it and then mix it in with the unpitched, dry signal
-EQing of the reverb can be very important. Here's just one idea that I've found useful (it's a "vocal reverb" trick but it can be applied to so many things): https://youtu.be/X6L9oODAg6g
-the width and panning of effects can be very important. A panned delay can add depth to a sound, and a narrowed reverb can add definition to the space. Even though it's not techno, this is a great example of what I mean by narrowed reverb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbk7mGafDec
-diffusion can also play an important role. For example if I put a short echo on a 2-4 snare it can sound like a double-snare. If I crank the diffusion knob up it gets a different dimension, and usually ends up being an interesting play between narrow-wide sound (which, admittedly, doesn't really matter much in the club but makes for an enjoyable effect when listened to in a controlled environment).
-be careful of the chain order. If you put saturation before the reverb chances are the reverb and the sound reverberating will have different character. For example, if you apply saturation after the reverb their character will meld and it will sound more like they belong, but for some situations the reverb can lose all of it's natural sound. In that case I will usually use aux reverb and add a small amount of the same saturation on it, or use a high saturation drive but lower the wetness of the effect on the dry-wet bar.
-my favorite trick is putting volume and pan automation on the auxed reverb. I'll often put this effect on it: https://shop.propellerheads.com/rack-extension/pump/ and then adjust when the volume drops or peaks, what's the speed of the pump and what's the dry-wet ratio. It often adds very interesting movement to the static reverb that's more interesting than a simple phaser or flanger on it. Also Reason has an interesting LFO (this baby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDT-lHQv3pw) which has shuffle and phase controls so when I use it to LFO the panning of the reverb - it doesn't sound quantized, predictable and bland. I'll often oscillate the speed or the amount of the panning oscillator, using LFO2 to modulate LFO1. Also, I'll use both of these tricks (panning and volume automation) on rides and noise (for example on the noise here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9BJ7f1DHB0 at 1:43 and 3:05. Basically I'll use it on anything that is long and static and I'd rather it had life.

Hope any of this helps.

This is golden mate. GOLDEN. Thanks a lot !
And your EP with Rebekah was pure madness

[Lag]

Thank you!

[Root]

There's also been that interview with Efdemin: https://www.xlr8r.com/gear/artist-tips-efdemin

Very fundamental Ideas to find a minimalistic approach. It's about sound design, if you're single tracks sound poor, work until they shine. Otherwise get rid of them. And something i found being very important to me (as i have a problem here): KILL YOUR DARLINGS. If you have that sequence or whatever that sounds so great, but doesn't fit your track - delete. Or at least save it for another track. But don't try to force it in an environment where it doesn't wants to be. In the end: trust your ears.

[dynamic]

I'm with jordanneke but sometimes I feel my tracks are too simple/minimal. And my approach is minimal not because I want it to be but it was how I got used to do it. Often I try to add more elements but 90% of the times the new elements doesn't work.

I also agree with intrusav about the challenge of deciding what will be the main elements.

[gedda]

If you only want a kickdrum and hit hat, then the kick and hat can have nice big reverbs, delays, parallel phase/chorus whatever, filling out that space/creating that sense of space.

What exactly is this "parallel phase" effect you speak of?

[juodas]

If you only want a kickdrum and hit hat, then the kick and hat can have nice big reverbs, delays, parallel phase/chorus whatever, filling out that space/creating that sense of space.

What exactly is this "parallel phase" effect you speak of?

Adding effects on return tracks/aux and applying them on a instrument you want

so it doesn't effect the main sound, but has an effect on a top